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24HourForums.com > Supported Forums > Robodoon's New World Order Zone > 'Who's Who' list challenging Darwin grows |
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Robodoon Original500© Member  God Fearing Patriot
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24HourNut wrote: Thanks for that. Yes
 "...we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the US, ...conspiring with others around the world to build ...-- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." David Rockefeller |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Thanks for that context about you. I just want to see where that takes me, if that's OK. My next questions are: how long ago did the dinosaurs die out? Did two of each dinosaur get on Noah's Ark or were they gone by then?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Playing to a different drummer
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24HourNut wrote:Did two of each dinosaur get on Noah's Ark or were they gone by then? Many were most likely in egg form. Some small animals and some in egg form most likely. Many species died off after the global flood. Those who survived off the ark and carried on we see continued to this day and others did not continue on. Today, we do not see all the species that were initially made.
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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JBF, but I thought the animals came to them and lined up and all to get on the Ark. Are you saying they went out and collected live dinosaur eggs from the tremendous amount of dinosaur species known to have existed, from continents they didn't know were on the planet? I don't even get how animals from across the ocean on other continents got to them, nevermind them getting dinosaur eggs from so many dinosaur species, knowing the eggs were male and female. Also, so, you're saying DINOSAURS existed at the time of the Ark. How long ago did dinosaurs die out then?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Playing to a different drummer
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24HourNut wrote:JBF, but I thought the animals came to them and lined up and all to get on the Ark. Are you saying they went out and collected live dinosaur eggs from the tremendous amount of dinosaur species known to have existed, from continents they didn't know were on the planet? I don't even get how animals from across the ocean on other continents got to them, nevermind them getting dinosaur eggs from so many dinosaur species, knowing the eggs were male and female. Also, so, you're saying DINOSAURS existed at the time of the Ark. How long ago did dinosaurs die out then? I can tell you the same thing that you yourself can read in the scriptures but the egg concept was just a guess. We know they did come to Moses as drawn by God in pairs and the other aspects are just human speculation. I tend to think that not all species were preserved prior to the flood. I think many were destroyed in the global flood. The fossil records indicate this flood and various depths and locations worldwide. The so-called time line is not very consistant in the geography of the world. The catastophic flood causes death globally.
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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JBF, thanks. So then, if your position is that dinosaurs existed at least up until the flood - how long ago does that place the end of the dinosaurs?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Playing to a different drummer
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24HourNut wrote:JBF, thanks. So then, if your position is that dinosaurs existed at least up until the flood - how long ago does that place the end of the dinosaurs? Before we go down a trail let me say 2 things first: #1. I don't know how old this earth is and Genesis can have a couple of options for date setting. #2. The outcome of the age of the earth has no difference to the deity and life of Jesus. Just wanted to set the framework if I may?  Like I said, the bible teaches that all the dinosaurs were killed at the flood except those that came off the ark. Genesis 7:17-23 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit[a] of life, all that was on the dry land, died. So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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JBF, how long ago was the flood? That would basically tell me how long ago you claim there were still dinosaurs around. I know you said some were after the Ark but I assume you aren't going to claim the classic giant ones (Brontosaurus, Trex, etc.) but ones like alligators and such.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Playing to a different drummer
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24HourNut wrote:JBF, how long ago was the flood? That would basically tell me how long ago you claim there were still dinosaurs around. I know you said some were after the Ark but I assume you aren't going to claim the classic giant ones (Brontosaurus, Trex, etc.) but ones like alligators and such. I don't know when the flood occured. I didn't do a lot of study in this area. It would be nice to get a christian on board who has come from a good scientific background regarding history who can share his/her faith and give scientific information as well. I might be a real boring fish on this one 24. You might have too keep fishing on this one. This may help: How many types of animals did Noah need to take? The relevant passages are Genesis 6:19–20 and Genesis 7:2–3. Genesis 6:19–20: ‘And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.’ Genesis 7:2–3: ‘Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.’ In the original Hebrew, the word for ‘beast’ and ‘cattle’ in these passages is the same: behemah, and it refers to land vertebrate animals in general. The word for ‘creeping things’ is remes, which has a number of different meanings in Scripture, but here it probably refers to reptiles.2 Noah did not need to take sea creatures3 because they would not necessarily be threatened with extinction by a flood. However, turbulent water would cause massive carnage, as seen in the fossil record, and many oceanic species probably did become extinct because of the Flood. However, if God in His wisdom had decided not to preserve some ocean creatures, this was none of Noah’s business. Noah did not need to take plants either—many could have survived as seeds, and others could have survived on floating mats of vegetation. Many insects and other invertebrates were small enough to have survived on these mats as well. The Flood wiped out all land animals which breathed through nostrils except those on the Ark (Genesis 7:22). Insects do not breathe through nostrils but through tiny tubes in their exterior skeleton. Clean animals: Bible commentators are evenly divided about whether the Hebrew means ‘seven’ or ‘seven pairs’ of each type of clean animal. Woodmorappe takes the latter just to concede as much to the biblioskeptics as possible. But the vast majority of animals are not clean, and were represented by only two specimens each. The term ‘clean animal’ was not defined until the Mosaic Law. But since Moses was also the compiler of Genesis, if we follow the principle that ‘Scripture interprets Scripture’, the Mosaic Law definitions can be applied to the Noahic situation. There are actually very few ‘clean’ land animals listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. What is a ‘kind’? God created a number of different types of animals with much capacity for variation within limits.4 The descendants of each of these different kinds, apart from humans, would today mostly be represented by a larger grouping than what is called a species. In most cases, those species descended from a particular original kind would be grouped today within what modern taxonomists (biologists who classify living things) call a genus (plural genera). One common definition of a species is a group of organisms which can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, and cannot mate with other species. However, most of the so-called species (obviously all the extinct ones) have not been tested to see what they can or cannot mate with. In fact, not only are there known crosses between so-called species, but there are many instances of trans-generic mating, so the ‘kind’ may in some cases be as high as the family. Identifying the ‘kind’ with the genus is also consistent with Scripture, which spoke of kinds in a way that the Israelites could easily recognize without the need for tests of reproductive isolation. For example, horses, zebras and donkeys are probably descended from an equine (horse-like) kind, since they can interbreed, although the offspring are sterile. Dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals are probably from a canine (dog-like) kind. All different types of domestic cattle (which are clean animals) are descended from the Aurochs, so there were probably at most seven (or fourteen) domestic cattle aboard. The Aurochs itself may have been descended from a cattle kind including bisons and water buffaloes. We know that tigers and lions can produce hybrids called tigons and ligers, so it is likely that they are descended from the same original kind. Woodmorappe totals about 8000 genera, including extinct genera, thus about 16,000 individual animals which had to be aboard. With extinct genera, there is a tendency among some paleontologists to give each of their new finds a new genus name. But this is arbitrary, so the number of extinct genera is probably highly overstated. Consider the sauropods, which were the largest dinosaurs—the group of huge plant-eaters like Brachiosaurus, Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, etc. There are 87 sauropod genera commonly cited, but only 12 are ‘firmly established’ and another 12 are considered ‘fairly well established’.5 One commonly raised problem is ‘How could you fit all those huge dinosaurs on the Ark?’ First, of the 668 supposed dinosaur genera, only 106 weighed more than ten tons when fully grown. Second, as said above, the number of dinosaur genera is probably greatly exaggerated. But these numbers are granted by Woodmorappe to be generous to skeptics. Third, the Bible does not say that the animals had to be fully grown. The largest animals were probably represented by ‘teenage’ or even younger specimens. The median size of all animals on the ark would actually have been that of a small rat, according to Woodmorappe‘s up-to-date tabulations, while only about 11 % would have been much larger than a sheep. Another problem often raised by atheists and theistic evolutionists is ‘how did disease germs survive the flood?’ This is a leading question—it presumes that germs were as specialized and infectious as they are now, so all the Ark’s inhabitants must have been infected with every disease on earth. But germs were probably more robust in the past, and have only fairly recently lost the ability to survive in different hosts or independently of a host. In fact, even now many germs can survive in insect vectors or corpses, or in the dried or frozen state, or be carried by a host without causing disease. Finally, loss of resistance to disease is consistent with the general degeneration of life since the Fall.6 Was the ark large enough to hold all the required animals? The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep. If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), that is 75,000 cm3 (cubic centimetres) or 4800 cubic inches, the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. Even if a million insect species had to be on board, it would not be a problem, because they require little space. If each pair was kept in cages of 10 cm (four inches) per side, or 1000 cm3, all the insect species would occupy a total volume of only 1000 m3, or another 12 cars. This would leave room for five trains of 99 cars each for food, Noah’s family and ‘range’ for the animals. However, insects are not included in the meaning of behemah or remes in Genesis 6:19-20, so Noah probably would not have taken them on board as passengers anyway. Tabulating the total volume is fair enough, since this shows that there would be plenty of room on the Ark for the animals with plenty left over for food, range etc. It would be possible to stack cages, with food on top or nearby (to minimize the amount of food carrying the humans had to do), to fill up more of the Ark space, while still allowing plenty of room for gaps for air circulation. We are discussing an emergency situation, not necessarily luxury accommodation. Although there is plenty of room for exercise, skeptics have overstated animals’ needs for exercise anyway. Even if we don’t allow stacking one cage on top of another to save floor space, there would be no problem. Woodmorappe shows from standard recommended floor space requirements for animals that all of them together would have needed less than half the available floor space of the Ark’s three decks. This arrangement allows for the maximum amount of food and water storage on top of the cages close to the animals. Food requirements The Ark would probably have carried compressed and dried foodstuffs, and probably a lot of concentrated food. Perhaps Noah fed the cattle mainly on grain, plus some hay for fibre. Woodmorappe calculated that the volume of foodstuffs would have been only about 15 % of the Ark’s total volume. Drinking water would only have taken up 9.4 % of the volume. This volume would be reduced further if rainwater was collected and piped into troughs. Excretory requirements It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning. Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (plenty of water around!) or destroyed by vermicomposting (composting by worms) which would also provide earthworms as a food source. Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change. Absorbent material (e.g. sawdust, softwood wood shavings and especially peat moss) would reduce the moisture content and hence the odour. Hibernation The space, feeding and excretory requirements were adequate even if the animals had normal day/night sleeping cycles. But hibernation is a possibility which would reduce these requirements even more. It is true that the Bible does not mention it, but it does not rule it out either. Some creationists suggest that God created the hibernation instinct for the animals on the Ark, but we should not be dogmatic either way. Some skeptics argue that food taken on board rules out hibernation, but this is not so. Hibernating animals do not sleep all winter, despite popular portrayals, so they would still need food occasionally. Conclusion This article has shown that the Bible can be trusted on testable matters like Noah’s Ark. Many Christians believe that the Bible can only be trusted on matters of faith and morals, not scientific matters. But we should consider what Jesus Christ Himself told Nicodemus (John 3:12): ‘If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?’ Similarly, if the Scriptures can be wrong on testable matters such as geography, history and science, why should they be trusted on matters like the nature of God and life after death, which are not open to empirical testing? Hence Christians should ‘be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you’ (1 Peter 3:15), when skeptics claim that the Bible conflicts with known ‘scientific facts’. Christians would be able to follow this command and answer skeptics’ anti–Ark arguments effectively, if they read John Woodmorappe’s book Noah’s Ark: a Feasibility Study. This remarkable book is the most complete analysis ever published regarding the gathering of animals to the Ark, provisions for their care and feeding, and the subsequent dispersion. For example, some skeptics have claimed that the post-Flood ground would be too salty for plants to grow. Woodmorappe points out that salt can be readily leached out by rainwater. Woodmorappe has devoted seven years to this scholarly, systematic answer to virtually all the anti–Ark arguments, alleged difficulties with the Biblical account, and other relevant questions. Nothing else like this has ever been written before—a powerful vindication of the Genesis Ark account. ‘It has just the sort of facts and details that kids find fascinating, and would make an excellent source of information for enhancing Bible study projects and class lessons on the Ark and Flood. Anyone interested in answering the many questions about the ark, especially from skeptics, would be advised to read Noah’s Ark.’7 Last edited on 04:55 pm by JustifiedByFaith "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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That's OK, I understand, JBF. But, can you say if it was less than 7, 6, 5, etc. thousand years ago? In other words, can you narrow it down at all? I assume you don't think Noah's Ark took place millions of years ago. Also, can you just tell me about how long ago YOU think the last dinosaur (not related remnants, but actual typical real dinosaurs) roamed the Earth?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Robodoon Original500© Member God Fearing Patriot
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24HourNut wrote: Thanks for that context about you. I just want to see where that takes me, if that's OK. My next questions are: how long ago did the dinosaurs die out? Did two of each dinosaur get on Noah's Ark or were they gone by then? This needs books of conversation to go through. I say what I say because of what I see and know, I don't have the answers for everything, are you suprised, no you are not. but the time line we are sold, isn't right. History shows its mistaken. We are feed an agenda or the goals of an agenda. And I know who's agenda it is.
"...we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the US, ...conspiring with others around the world to build ...-- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." David Rockefeller |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Playing to a different drummer
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24HourNut wrote:That's OK, I understand, JBF. But, can you say if it was less than 7, 6, 5, etc. thousand years ago? In other words, can you narrow it down at all? I assume you don't think Noah's Ark took place millions of years ago. Also, can you just tell me about how long ago YOU think the last dinosaur (not related remnants, but actual typical real dinosaurs) roamed the Earth? I do not believe in the billions and billions of years nonsense. I even have a problem with 1 million years. The earth appears to many scientists to be fairly young. The other questions are not in my expertise. Sorry. Last edited on 12:28 am by JustifiedByFaith "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Thank you. I wanted to see how much scientific evidence one has to throw out to believe what you both believe. I wanted to see just how far-reaching your invalidation of the scientific community went, and what it takes to dismiss the gradual appearance of new species over time and you both provided me with that answer. It seems in order for me to not believe that new species appeared and evolved from pre-existing ones, with primates eventually appearing, and then humans ... I would have to believe that all species were created at one time and that dinosaurs were on the Ark and people existed during the era of dinosaurs. I would also have to accept that dinosaurs, and likely some dinosaur eggs, along with all species from even the continents they didn't know existed, were on an Ark and that all species today can be traced back to the Ark. Thank you for giving me a refresher in the framework one must accept to dismiss the appearance of new species over time and their gradual evolution.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Playing to a different drummer
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24HourNut wrote:Thank you. I wanted to see how much scientific evidence one has to throw out to believe what you both believe. I wanted to see just how far-reaching your invalidation of the scientific community went, and what it takes to dismiss the gradual appearance of new species over time and you both provided me with that answer. It seems in order for me to not believe that new species appeared and evolved from pre-existing ones, with primates eventually appearing, and then humans ... I would have to believe that all species were created at one time and that dinosaurs were on the Ark and people existed during the era of dinosaurs. I would also have to accept that dinosaurs, and likely some dinosaur eggs, along with all species from even the continents they didn't know existed, were on an Ark and that all species today can be traced back to the Ark. Thank you for giving me a refresher in the framework one must accept to dismiss the appearance of new species over time and how they evolve from each other. Well said. Well summarized in my opinion. Your welcome. 
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato |
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