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24HourForums.com > Supported Forums > Britt's Child Education > REPORT: To Spank or Not to Spank?

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 Posted: 01:38 pm

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Verbal abuse can be just as damaging as a little "tap" or "spank" and that goes unnoticed.


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 Posted: 04:05 pm

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Hamster wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote: Hamster wrote: In no circumstances is it ever alright to hit a child...........ever........period!
I agree. No hitting. Just have them little ones bend over and...Spank::hiney:: Spank::hiney:: Spank::hiney:: those bottoms.


Whether you justify it by calling it  a"spank" or not...It is still teaching them the only way they can win as an adult is through physical superiority and force.

Do you really want to pass that message on? That as a parent daddy could only win by "spanking" me when he had no other way? It collapses their world-they look to you as having answers for everything and to spank actually says to them "I'm all out of reason and ideas so I'll just have to hit you instead."

All you have to do is REALLY look them in the eye afterwards and you'll have your answer. You've won that time-but at what cost?


It's effective in the animal kingdom. Horses bit each other and kick. Dog's bite each other. Birds fight it out. Fish bite each others tails.

I see no negotiating in the animal kingdom and no "time-out" programs.

Not to say humans should use the same methods as the animal kingdom but when you do a crime you get handcuffs forced on your wrists that hurt, you get phsically put in the back of a cop car and taken to jail.

Spanking has worked for hundreds of years. The new programs don't seem to have much success on these children do they? Look at teen crime? Look at childrens attitudes toward parents vs 20+ years ago? I don't see much evidence that the "no pain" program is effective. ::wiseman::




Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."

Matthew 24:4


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 Posted: 04:19 pm

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JustifiedByFaith wrote: foxglovepress wrote:  Personally, I think back in the good old days, when children got there swats (on the bottom), they grew up to be a lot better children than today's youth!  That's quite a statement huh? :giantgrin:
Nope, not coming from a down to earth traditionalist like yourself. Looking for the good ole days is a honest venture I think...:cool:

Why Thank You JBF!  You sound to me like you were brought up in a good manner too.......................................:)




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 Posted: 04:26 pm

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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Hamster wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote: Hamster wrote: In no circumstances is it ever alright to hit a child...........ever........period!
I agree. No hitting. Just have them little ones bend over and...Spank::hiney:: Spank::hiney:: Spank::hiney:: those bottoms.


Whether you justify it by calling it  a"spank" or not...It is still teaching them the only way they can win as an adult is through physical superiority and force.

Do you really want to pass that message on? That as a parent daddy could only win by "spanking" me when he had no other way? It collapses their world-they look to you as having answers for everything and to spank actually says to them "I'm all out of reason and ideas so I'll just have to hit you instead."

All you have to do is REALLY look them in the eye afterwards and you'll have your answer. You've won that time-but at what cost?


It's effective in the animal kingdom. Horses bit each other and kick. Dog's bite each other. Birds fight it out. Fish bite each others tails.

I see no negotiating in the animal kingdom and no "time-out" programs.

Not to say humans should use the same methods as the animal kingdom but when you do a crime you get handcuffs forced on your wrists that hurt, you get phsically put in the back of a cop car and taken to jail.

Spanking has worked for hundreds of years. The new programs don't seem to have much success on these children do they? Look at teen crime? Look at childrens attitudes toward parents vs 20+ years ago? I don't see much evidence that the "no pain" program is effective. ::wiseman::


I understand your point but to compare us to the animals seems strange.

I agree too that most people only use the "no pain" program and haven't found anything else to substitute it. There are a growing number of people who refuse to use spanking or time out as a method (both if which I feel don't worry in the long run anyway) and this involves understanding the true nature of human interaction and the reason for that attention/power struggle in the first place.

That is the step that is lacking in most parent and child relationships IMO.

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 Posted: 06:17 am

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::whello::  Hi! As promised, here are several references and study excerpts that point to a relationship between childhood spanking and problems with spanking fetishes, anxiety and depression, and aggression in adulthood.  Most of the studies are only cited in articles; I have not yet located the actual study I read last year regarding spanking fetishes specifically, but it is referenced. 

It must be pointed out that the buttocks are an erogenous zone many children see as a part of their secondary sexual regions  Spanking, therefor, can be a sexually abusive activity.  If you need evidence beyond studies, simply do a Google search on spanking and witness the tens of thousands of pornographic sites devoted to spanking fetishes.  The numbers are staggering.

Interestingly, Nordic countries have laws prohibiting spanking and consequently have much lower rates of juvenile and adult violence.  They also have fewer numbers of people living the sadomasochistic "lifestyle" prominent in American culture, and other cultures which advocate spanking.  Their rates of anxiety disorders are also significantly lower (though alcoholism is more prevalent). 

Even if a spanking parent does not intend for their spankings to be sexual, their spankings may be accepted as such by children, especially in cases where children receive only negative attention or outright indifference from parents.  The effects are quite astonishing: Many spanking fetishists engage in fantasies of being a child when they are spanked by an adult partner.

Listen: If you are an adult who likes being spanked, more power to you.  That is your business.  I do not think it is fair or correct to inflict such preferences upon defenseless children, however.

Jordan Riak of the Plain Talk About Spanking web site writes the following in response to several studies, most notably Michael J. Marshall's book Why Spanking Doesn’t Work (2002). 


Spanking the Buttocks and Sexual Development

Spanking of the buttocks can stimulate immature sexual feelings in some children. They have no control over those feelings, nor do they understand what is happening to them. The tragic consequence for some of these children is that they form a connection between pain, humiliation and sexual arousal that endures for the rest of their lives. Even though they may marry, raise families, hold responsible positions in the community and show no signs of emotional disturbance, they may be secretly and shamefully tormented by a need which, in some cases, compels them to hire prostitutes whom they spank or from whom they receive spankings. The pornography industry does a thriving business catering to the needs of these unfortunate individuals. Medical science has long recognized and documented in great detail the link between buttocks-beating in childhood and the later development of unnatural sexual desires and behaviors. This should be reason enough never to spank a child.


One of the most interesting studies was conducted by MacMillan, HL, Boyle MH, and Wong MYY.  Titled, "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample," this 1999 study correlates anxiety disorders, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems to childhood spanking and slapping:


The majority of the 9953 respondents indicated that they had been slapped or spanked, or both, by an adult during childhood "sometimes" (33.4%) or "rarely" (40.9%); 5.5% reported that this occurred "often." The remainder (20.2%) reported "never" experiencing these behaviours. Among the respondents without a history of physical or sexual abuse during childhood, those who reported being slapped or spanked "often" or "sometimes" had significantly higher lifetime rates of anxiety disorders (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 1.43, 95% confidence interval [CI] 1.04-1.96), alcohol abuse or dependence (adjusted OR 2.02, 95% CI 1.27-3.21) and one or more externalizing problems (adjusted OR 2.08, 95% CI 1.36-3.16), compared with those who reported "never" being slapped or spanked. There was also an association between a history of slapping or spanking and major depression, but it was not statistically significant (adjusted OR 1.64, 95% CI 0.96-2.80).


 

Finally, a non-scientific Biblically-based comment from a Methodist Pastor:


“The much-touted ‘religious argument’ to support corporal punishment is built upon a few isolated quotes from the Book of Proverbs. Using the same kind of selective reading, one could just as easily cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, the rigid suppression of women, polygamy, incest and infanticide. It seems to me that the brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major themes of the New Testament which teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the beauty and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human conflicts.”

Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Pastor, Toledo, Ohio  




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 Posted: 10:54 pm

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I felt COMPLETELY ignored about my statements on the need to teach skills....makes me wonder if people are not interested in helping children change their behavior....?
For more helpful information on helping to change a child's behavior you can check out a book called "Without Spanking or Spoiling" by Elizabeth Crary.
In her book Crary states: !. Negative reinforcement does not teach the child what to do. For example, a child who was yelled at [or spanked] after hitting is sister may know he is not supposed to hit her, but he does not know what he MAY do when he is very angry with her. The next time he gets angry at her, he may push her down instead of hitting her. The child will probably get yelled at [or spanked] again, but he still will not know what he may do when he is angry.

To me the saying: Spare the rod, spoil the child does not mean we should spank our children....the rod was used to guide sheep not to hit them with. And to me guidance means actively teaching our children the various virtues of compassion, courtesy, respect for one another, etc. I don't see where hitting or spanking does that at all.
Blessings,
Marcia

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 Posted: 11:02 pm

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I felt COMPLETELY ignored about my statements on the need to teach skills....makes me wonder if people are not interested in helping children change their behavior....?


Hi Marcia.  ::whello::  I read your post and simply had nothing to add, because I agreed with it.  I have a child who has a mild version of ADHT, and we are working through it.  I am not sure why you would take people just absorbing your story and enjoying it as them "not interested in helping children.." because I for one am interested (it's a constant area of improvement) but just didn't have anything to add to your post, sorry!  I'm just sort of reading and taking in people's differing viewpoints...




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 Posted: 11:07 pm

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Hi Frank,
I guess just a simple acknowledgment would have been nice. Thanks for your!
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 Posted: 11:21 pm

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Marcia Brehmer wrote: Hi Frank,
I guess just a simple acknowledgment would have been nice. Thanks for your!
Marcia


Marcia, you are right, someone should have acknowledged what you wrote, especially since you obviously put the time into it AND are new.  I apologize for not having done that, even though I thought of it as my child has a mild version of that condition like I said.  I must have been busy (as usual) and assumed others would. 

Join me for some emoticon violence, Marcia.

Bad members, bad!  ::bonk::




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 Posted: 11:36 pm

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Marcia Brehmer wrote:
To me the saying: Spare the rod, spoil the child does not mean we should spank our children....the rod was used to guide sheep not to hit them with. And to me guidance means actively teaching our children the various virtues of compassion, courtesy, respect for one another, etc. I don't see where hitting or spanking does that at all.
Blessings,
Marcia










Bible Answers







WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT...


SPANKING CHILDREN?


Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."


Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."


The practical wisdom found in these verses in the book of Proverbs covers the subject of child rearing and corporal punishment. Children who are not properly disciplined, are among the most miserable of children. Unruly and spoiled children are not the blessings that the Bible says they should be to parents. When a child is given no boundaries, they feel lost. If they have been given boundaries, yet those boundaries are not maintained, it causes great harm to a child, as they will not only be in dangerous territory, they will also lose respect for authority. This is where we find so many of the children and youth of today. They are rebels, who not only disrespect authority, but openly defy all authority figures such as teachers, policemen, clergy, and their own parents. The blame rests upon the parents of these children, if they have not heeded the advice given in this and other verses found in Proverbs.


This brings us to the subject of how we should discipline a child who disobeys the rules. There has been much debate on the subject of corporal punishment (the spanking of a child). Corporal punishment simply means bodily punishment while the definition of spank in Webster's Dictionary is: 1.) to strike with something flat, as the open hand, especially on the buttocks, as in punishment. 2.) to move along swiftly or smartly, a smack given in spanking. This is what the Bible says about spanking:


Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."


Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."


First of all, discipline of children should begin at an early age, whenever a child begins to defy the parent. Remember the old saying, "He who spares the rod, spoils the child." Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts.  The Bible definition of a fool means one who is a rebel, so this is saying that all children have rebellion in them and when it surfaces, it is our duty as parents to drive it out of them.  We are to do this by punishing them with a whack on the buttocks with a small reed-like rod. This rod could be a switch from a fruit tree branch or a willow tree branch or a small wooden spoon. It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage.   The purpose of a spanking is not to cause any lasting bodily harm, but to cause spiritual correction. A spanking should be swift and cause short lived pain that makes a point.  That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them loss of their lives in some cases. (For instance, if a child tries to run across the street, they could be run over and killed.)


Some people say that all spanking is child abuse, but this is totally wrong. The real abuse to the child is not to spank them when they need correction.  Of course, some parents, who themselves are out of control, can abuse their children by beating them in angry rages. This is child abuse, however, it does not justify doing away with spanking children if it is done properly, and for the right reasons. Parents who beat their children, need help themselves. They are sinful people and they not only will abuse their children by beating them, but will hurt them in other ways as well. Many times, these same children are left to go hungry and uncared for. They have no love. These kind of homes need the love of Christ so that the whole family can be healed. We are not to spank our children with uncontrolled anger, and thus hand out unjust punishment.


Proverbs 19:18(AMP): "Discipline your son while there is hope, but do not (indulge your angry resentments by undue chastisements and) set yourself to his ruin."


Proverbs 22:6: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."


Godly discipline will keep children from being dysfunctional later in life. We are told as Christian parents to train our children in the ways of the Lord and when he grows up, he will not depart from that training.  Notice it says "train" not "teach." Many parents teach their children right from wrong, but have failed to "train" them to obey.  Spanking is part of the training.  Many parents yell and threaten their children, but never follow through with the proper punishment and therefore their children get their own way. A disciplined child will bring great delight to parents, while the child left alone will bring shame to the home.


Proverbs 29:15 &17(AMP):


15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left undisciplined brings his mother to shame.
17 Correct your son, and he will give you rest; yes, he will give delight to your heart.


Ephesians 6:1-4:


1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.









Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."

Matthew 24:4


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 Posted: 11:45 pm

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Frank,
I did want to ask you what is ADHT? javascript:emoticon(':bigwink:',%20'images/emoticons/bigwink.gif')

I lovingly acknowledge my daughter of having ADFD....Attention Deficit FIDGETY Disorder, be cause she is more fidgety than the typical "hyperactivity" type behavior. But then girls can present ADHD differently than boys. Her 4th grade teacher [her most ADHD friendly teacher ever!] would tape a 2 ft square around her desk and allow her to sit, stand or what ever she needed to do to move...as long as she wasn't spilling out of her area and bothering others. It helped her to learn what space she needed as well as respect for others.

Please, no violent emtional icons....but roses will do! LOL javascript:emoticon('::rose::',%20'images/emoticons/rose2.gif')javascript:emoticon('::rose::',%20'images/emoticons/rose2.gif')javascript:emoticon('::rose::',%20'images/emoticons/rose2.gif')

Blessings,
Marcia

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 Posted: 11:49 pm

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 did want to ask you what is ADHT?
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.  I meant ADHD!  :)




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 Posted: 12:11 am

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Smacking kids? No I don't agree with it. I was smacked and all it did was make me worse.

I'd stand there, stick my tongue out and say 'As if that hurt!' while biting back the tears of pain as I got another one. Then I'd kick stuff on my way up to be shut in my room.

 

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 Posted: 12:26 am

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Dear Justified

Please stop hitting me over the head with the HOLY Bible. This will not increase my love for Christ or any of His teachings...which are based on LOVE.
Christ annulled many old testament "social" teachings. For example Christ annulled the "eye for an eye" and taught us to love one another and turn the other cheek.
This is not the place for theology squabbling....so I will say no more.

Blessings and love to you,
Marcia


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 Posted: 12:45 am