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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > The Christian's Straight and Narrow Path > Josephus and Christ |
| Moderated by: JustifiedByFaith, 1jester | Page: 1 2   |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
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The ancient Jewish historian Flavius Jospehus is famous for making two references to Christ in his Antiquities of the Jews which was written about AD 77. The first reference is well known and the subject of much dispute. His second reference to Christ is much less well known and is not disputed by any serious scholar. 1. There are three schools of thought regarding the first quote from Josephus: a. That the entire quote in genuine b. That the entire quote is an interpolation c. That the quote is genuine, but with interpolations The first option does not seem likley. If it were genuine, one would think that Josephus would have become a Christian and he did not. The second option also does not seem likley. Almost all (or all I am not sure) MSS of Josephus contain this quote in some form or another and it is quoted by other ancient authors as early as AD 310. The third option seems the most reasonable. Scholars working on Josephus have identified the parts believed to be genuine and those thought to be interpolations. I have quoted Josephus below with the interpolations in red: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." 2. The following quote from Josephus is not in question and it also provides much information about Christ at an early date and from a non-Christian source: "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
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sumnom Original500© Member 
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The ancient Jewish historian Flavius Jospehus Who?
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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sumnom wrote: The ancient Jewish historian Flavius Jospehus Are you serious or did I spell something wrong?
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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Aethelred wrote: sumnom wrote:The ancient Jewish historian Flavius Jospehus Why shouldn't sumnom be serious? Do you think that everybody in the entire world is acquainted with the existence of Flavius Josephus? I only know of him because other people on the Internet discuss that one disputed quote. His history books are not in print and available at my local bookstore. I didn't even know there were Bibles other than the King James, or that there are sections of Christianity apart from Protestants and Catholics, until I was in my thirties.
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sumnom Original500© Member
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I am just ribbing you for the spelling error. On the other hand, I barely know who Josephus is. I know the name and that is about all. I was not raised a Christian and I have spent little time studying Christianity. I consider this a fault, actually. I keep meaning to learn more but I never seem to find the time. 
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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sumnom wrote: I am just ribbing you for the spelling error. One chapter a day or week. Patience... here a little and there a little. It's a slow process for good digestion sumnom.  Last edited on 10:51 pm by JustifiedByFaith  Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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sumnom wrote: I am just ribbing you for the spelling error. Josephus was a Jewish person born around AD 35. During the Wars with Rome AD 66-70, he sided with the Romans and was shown favor by Titus (then a Roman general, Titus became Emperor in AD 79 and ruled until his death in AD 81). Jospehus I believe went to Rome where he wrote a History of the Jews and an account of the Wars with Rome. As I recall he died about AD 90, but I am on the laptop and don't have access to any reference to look that up right now, so if I am off on that or any other date don't fault me. When I was about 10 my grandfather gave me a copy of Josephus that was printed in 1839, at the time I didn't know any background on this Josephus chap, but I found the book very interesting. However, you should be aware that Josephus is a Jewish historian, he spends very little time on issues relating to Christianity, his focus is Jewish history up to his time. I think if nothing else you would find a study of the early Christians interesting. I would suggest you read John, then Acts and then the letters of Paul. After that you might find Eusebius interesting, there is another thread about him here, but in a nutshell he records Christian history from Christ to his own time about AD 310. He is the first historian of the Christian faith and records a lot of quotes that are otherwise lost to history.
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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BTW - I was pretty sure I was the subject of a leg-pulling, thus my post above.
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sumnom Original500© Member
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Thank you for the bio, Aethelred. The history of the early church is of particular interest to me. This does not mean I know anything about it. I know just enough to want to know more. The problem is that I already have stacks of books that have to be read and disgested in the coming year.
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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The problem is that I already have stacks of books that have to be read and disgested in the coming year. Man, do I know the feeling! If I were to never buy another book I doubt I would live long enough to read all that I own. The problem is that I keep buying them at a rate of several a week.
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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I am just ribbing you for the spelling error. If you are going to get me on every spelling error I make, you are going to be very busy! 
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sumnom Original500© Member
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You got me pretty good with the "everyday act os resistance" the other day. Yes, I have more books than I can hope to read and yet I keep getting more. I don't think I would want to be in the position of having read all thebooks I own. I like the possibilities of books unread. How's that for an excuse?
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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"The first option does not seem likley. If it were genuine, one would think that Josephus would have become a Christian and he did not." I don't necessarily agree that he would have become a Christian even in light of the fact that he may have expressed some acknowledgement of the concepts expressed in the red letter portion of the quote. The gospels mention in a number of places that individuals in the Jewish leadership acknowledge something very special about the person and ministry of Christ and yet fell short of becoming Christians for fear of the religious/political repercussions of doing so.
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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pmh1nic wrote: "The first option does not seem likley. If it were genuine, one would think that Josephus would have become a Christian and he did not." As usual, you have made a valid point!
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Friend Original500© Member  Peaceful In The Morning
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Josephus - Biblical Accounts Outside the Bible Josephus mentions New Testament events and people in some of his works. For many skeptics, this is viewed as significant evidence against the myth and legend theories that plague early Christianity. Here are some excerpts: http://www.josephus-1.com/
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > The Christian's Straight and Narrow Path > Josephus and Christ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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