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| Moderated by: JustifiedByFaith, 1jester | Page:   1 2 3 4   |
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muddawber Guardian1000© Member 
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seekeroftruth wrote: what do you think?? Is Bush right? Do non-Christians go to heaven or is Jesus the Way the truth and the light as the bibles says? I think all non-Christians will be in heaven just long enough to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement.
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muddawber Guardian1000© Member
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seekeroftruth wrote: Saint wrote:I'd say ...no. and here's why: You will know by the fruit that the tree bears.
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1jester Pioneer100© Member  Pilgrim Sojourner
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I agree with Muddawber: the Bible tells us to watch, be vigilant, test people against what's written in Holy Scripture.
 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. -Matthew 22:37-39 |
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seekeroftruth Original500© Member
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I have been diligently searching the scriptures for over 35 years. In addition I actually try to listen to or read the President's speeches in there entirety (rather then the sound bites and characterizations of what he says spewed out by the media). I've read seven or eight books related to his Presidency with a focus on the war in Iraq and the war against terrorism in general. "the bible says you will know them by their fruit" Unfortunately you only THINK you know his "fruits" but my guess is that "knowing" is based on the twist reporting you get from the mainstream media. IF he is a pretender then to listen to his speeches will only confuse you further. I suggest look at what he does. WE went into Iraq illegally to enforce UN resolutions. Bush should have asked congress for a declaration of War and we should have had a plan outlined to end the war. We went in under false pretenses because of faulty information. 100,000,000. Iraq are dead, man woman and child. God loves them just as much as he loves us in America. The UN is evil and they are working towards a One World Government. What is Bush doing to warn follow believers??? What is Bush doing that you think he's such a great Christian?? Yea he has books out but without action the books are just lots and lots of words. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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"IF he is a pretender then to listen to his speeches will only confuse you further." The only way to discover if he is a pretender is to listen to what he says. You don't discover if he is a pretender by listening to the medias characterizations of what he says OR bits and pieces of what he says out of context. "I suggest look at what he does. WE went into Iraq illegally to enforce UN resolutions. Bush should have asked congress for a declaration of War and we should have had a plan outlined to end the war." The President didn't need a declaration of war to conduct military operations against Iraq. Congress gave their approval for military action. It's called "Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq" "We went in under false pretenses because of faulty information." Wrong. Read the resolution. "Iraq are dead, man woman and child. God loves them just as much as he loves us in America." Yes He does. He also loves the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) murdered, tortured, raped and unjustly imprisoned by Saddam's regime. He is not only the God of Love and Mercy but also the God of Justice. Last edited on 03:57 pm by pmh1nic |
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
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Ok...Who stretched this thread?!!! @#$%&*!!!!!
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
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seekeroftruth Original500© Member
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Seeker: "IF he is a pretender then to listen to his speeches will only confuse you further." pmh1nic: The only way to discover if he is a pretender is to listen to what he says. You don't discover if he is a pretender by listening to the medias characterizations of what he says OR bits and pieces of what he says out of context. Seeker: So what you are saying is that you shell know them (their fruits) by what they say, is that what you are saying?? So if you are a con man and your goal is to trick people out of their money, all people need to do is listen to what you say and they will discover that you are a con?? What does a deceiver do?? Don’t they tell lies??? Would’ent their speech be full of lies?? Full of things that sound good?? Is this really what you’re saying “listen to what they say and you won’t be deceived?? I think that’s very naive. Is this biblical?? Can you back that up with scripture?? We are warned that “…Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13) and “many false prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many” with “great signs and wonders” (Mat 24:9 & Mark 13:25) seeker: "I suggest look at what he does. WE went into Iraq illegally to enforce UN resolutions. Bush should have asked congress for a declaration of War and we should have had a plan outlined to end the war." pmh1nic: The President didn't need a declaration of war to conduct military operations against Iraq. Congress gave their approval for military action. It's called "Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq" seeker: "We went in under false pretenses because of faulty information." pmh1nic: Wrong. Read the resolution Seeker: I did and you and others can read it again below. We went into Iraq because of alleged weapons violations which turned out to be false. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/resolution.text/index.html Check out what former UN inspector Scott Ritter had to say about the alleged weapons of mass destruction. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,351165,00.html seeker: 100,000,000"Iraq are dead, man woman and child. God loves them just as much as he loves us in America." pmh1nic: Yes He does. pmh1nic: He also loves the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) murdered, tortured, raped and unjustly imprisoned by Saddam's regime. He is not only the God of Love and Mercy but also the God of Justice. Seeker: The bible says: WE must first take out the log in our own eye before we take out the speck in others. America is killing millions of babies every year. This is wrong! We are also teaching our children that they come form apes in our schools. We teach kids that they are causing Global warming and on and on who are we to bring justice to Iraq?? Seeker: There is no question that Saddam’s regime was evil but so are all the other regimes. Look at Sadie Arabia, Bush just gave them 20 billion dollars for weapons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-ohb-5gl-w You get your head chopped of in Sadie Arabia for having a bible. There is religious persecution in Sadie Arabia. The people there are treated no better then people of Iraq, but we give the Sadies money for arms. Does this make since?? Did you know that 41% of foreign fighters in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMoaQi52DbU&eurl=http://jischinger.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/bush-delivers-20-billion-dollar-arms-deal-to-saudi-arabia/ Is the solution to go to war with Saudi Arabia too?? What do you think Christ would do? His word says “ Not by might nor by power but by my spirit” If we go to war with Iraq because Saddam killed and murdered then don’t you think we should just start bombing everyone else too. WE should go into China and start bombing them they have a huge army that can do a lot of damage. Oh and what about Russia they have lots of power and the people are not treaded that great over there either. My point is, if we go into war to liberate one nation then we should start warring with all nations that need liberating. What’s good for one is good for the others. We trade with China yet the people of China are under persecution and many are in horrible conditions. Many are imprisoned for just being a Christian. Look at the slave labor in China, is this okay?? What are we doing about this?? Go to any store and look at the label, you will see made in China right? Did you know that China goods are made with the hands of slaves?? Now here is what I think. The bible is right. We change nations by setting a good example and sending missionaries who love Jesus and care about others. The missionaries teach the people the people rise up( revolution) and they over take the bad regime and set up a republic themselves then and only then will the change last. You can’t expect to change a nation by coming over and killing people left and right. God’s spirit must change the hearts and minds of man not guns or war.
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seekeroftruth Original500© Member
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pmh1nic I’ve read lots of what you wrote on this site and I have no doubt that you are a genuine God loving man. The reason I’m opening up this discussion is because I believe that we as Christians need to ask questions and “search out a matter” like the bible says. We can all be tricked the bible is full of warnings about this. You love your grandkids and if anyone of them has to go to war and maybe lose their lives it must be a Just War. I’m sure you would agree with that right. So then we need to dig, search, look at both sides and also scripture before we sanction going to war or sending our children to war.
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david1080 Guardian1000© Member
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The Bible also says not to judge others. Only God knows a man's true heart, his past and future and is the only one qualified to judge the man. Just as President Bush may not have shown Christ like characteristics in his words and actions, is that really any worse than judging him in the open while proclaiming to be a Christian? The Bible also tells us not to bare false witness. Sound bites and snippets taken out of context, even in the man's own words are far from anything true. A friend of mine was visiting me last week and he said, the only reason we went to war is because old man Bush told his son, boy, you go get that man, and the president did. Now here is a man that proclaims to be a Christian, he even tells everyone how much God loves them on his voice mail message for personal and business. I asked him, do you really believe that is why we went to war, do you really and truly believe that? He said, well his daddy did say that. We all know that isn't the truth. Anyone who knowingly says that is spreading a lie, like it or not. Bush 41 may have said that but it sure isn't the reason we went to war and only a fool would believe that. The Bible also says to remove the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from someone elses. Personally I have never seen so many people so full of hate for 1 man that it overwhelms all avenues of common sense. If they were to ever stop to examine the origin of that hate they might be surprised. As far as "knowing them by their fruits, are you sure that was about Christians? Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? It looks like it kinda goes both ways. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself. Some men even bring their own rope and tie the knot themselves.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Searching The Hearts Of Man
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david1080 wrote: The Bible also says not to judge others. Only God knows a man's true heart, his past and future and is the only one qualified to judge the man. Welcome david1080, A well balanced post. It is a difficult task to discern when to judge and when not to. There is scriptural direction regarding how, who, when and in what way. Welcome!  Let all things be done for edification...
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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seekeroftruth Original500© Member
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David: The Bible also says not to judge others. Only God knows a man's true heart, his past and future and is the only one qualified to judge the man. David: Just as President Bush may not have shown Christ like characteristics in his words and actions, is that really any worse than judging him in the open while proclaiming to be a Christian? Seeker: Thanks David for your post! I hope that what I’m about to write does not offend you. My intent is not to be disagreeable but to give you a different angle that you may or may not have seen before. David: The Bible also tells us not to bare false witness. Sound bites and snippets taken out of context, even in the man's own words are far from anything true. Seeker: How do you know that these sound bites are taken out of context?? In what way where they taken out of context? David: A friend of mine was visiting me last week and he said, the only reason we went to war is because old man Bush told his son, boy, you go get that man, and the president did. David :Now here is a man that proclaims to be a Christian, he even tells everyone how much God loves them on his voice mail message for personal and business. I asked him, do you really believe that is why we went to war, do you really and truly believe that? Seeker: So you believe your friend is not a Christian just because he is against this war?? How do you know he’s wrong? It sounds to me that you are judging him yet you tell others not to judge. He said, well his daddy did say that. David:We all know that isn't the truth. Anyone who knowingly says that is spreading a lie, like it or not. Bush 41 may have said that but it sure isn't the reason we went to war and only a fool would believe that. Seeker: So then why did we go to war?? Remember we started booming them first and it turned out to be with faulty information. David: The Bible also says to remove the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from someone elses. Personally I have never seen so many people so full of hate for 1 man that it overwhelms all avenues of common sense. If they were to ever stop to examine the origin of that hate they might be surprised. Seeker: If Bush is a pretender and if he lead us into war to help usher in a one world government and 100,000,000 innocent people died then don’t you think they have good reason to dislike him?? David: As far as "knowing them by their fruits, are you sure that was about Christians? Seeker: How many Christians do you know that go to the Bohemian grove and participate in mock human sacrifices and run around naked? How many Christians do you know who have been investigated for mass murder but the investigation stopped on Fathers orders? How many Christians do you know of who have been accused of Rape and the accuser is killed by mysterious means? How many Christians do you know that have children come out and testify against them for sexual abuse?? How many Christians do you know that hire 11 of their skull and bones friends to work for them?? And in all these things he does not make any apologies. Seeker: The bible tells us to be on guard right? Is being on guard the same is judging? The bible also says that Satan comes as an angle of light and his servants come as servants of righteousness. Don’t you take that as a warning?? Why is it that if anyone is vigilant and watchful they are labeled as judgmental? Not only judgmental but they are even considered to not be a Christian. David: Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? It looks like it kinda goes both ways. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself. Some men even bring their own rope and tie the knot themselves.
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david1080 Guardian1000© Member
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I never judged my friend. That isn't my job. Yes we are to test and make opinions based on biblical knowledge and understanding. This isn't used to "judge" a person but in order for us to either beware, relax, avoid or bare witness to, never to judge. Jesus came not to judge but to save. When you go judging others, you place yourself over and above Jesus. If Jesus didn't come to judge then neither did you, period. This entire thing has gotten way too political. I think I noticed a political thread somewhere. That is where I would have gone if I wanted to hear the same old "I hate bush" talk that has been forced on us for almost 8 years and based on nonsense. Others have asked you to calm this political stuff down and you seem to put it into a higher gear. From what I see it isn't truth you are seeking but either a debate or someone to hate Bush with, neither of which I wish to be. I disagree with you seeker but I am not judging you. I see what you are about and it isn't for me. This is the testing I do. I'm sorry but I just don't much care for the fruit you are trying to harvest from thistles and thorns and that is exactly what your hatred for George Bush is, thistles and thorns, not the love that Jesus portrayed. When Jesus cried out about the government officials then, He based it on truth that He saw with His own eyes, not some halfwitted reporter on CBS or some crazy left wing website. It was based on truth that He saw for Himself.
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seekeroftruth Original500© Member
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david1080 wrote: I never judged my friend. That isn't my job. Yes we are to test and make opinions based on biblical knowledge and understanding. This isn't used to "judge" a person but in order for us to either beware, relax, avoid or bare witness to, never to judge. it's to bad that many Christina's think they should stay in their place and just follow what they are told and not ask questions. now i think i know how many will be deceived . that is what the bible says "many will be deceived if possible even the elect" how do you think that will happen?? I'd say because Christians don't care what's going on around them. Remember that Hitler had the Christians bowing down to him. they thought Hitler was a Christian too. The points I made about Bush are all true. Are you going to be a Brean see?? If you do you will be posting things to warn people because you love them just like me. You will get a lot a flack so remember a servant is not greater then his master.
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david1080 Guardian1000© Member
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Seeker Just because a person doesn't agree with you on a topic mean they are going about anything blindly. I used facts as I could find them to base my opinion on George Bush just as I used facts as I see them to base my opinions of you. I just don't agree with you. I asked the questions, I just don't demand that everyone around me think exactly as I do or they are ignorant, stupid or a heathen. I did base my opinions on something other than thin air and CBS reporting, both are of equal value in my eyes. Love will get you much farther in reaching people for Christ than will your demand that someone either agree with you right off or debate you until you win the fight Just because someone doesn't rant and rave doesn't mean they are deceived. I am not going to debate you. You can say all of the mean and rude things you wish. You can judge me all that you wish but seriously seeker, I have my feelings about this, you aren't going to change them, I have dealt with this long ago and I am not going to argue with you over this. The likes of you have been trying to fight about this or things like it for 7 years and I'm done debating. I have my opinion, it is different than yours. Live with it. I really don't care if you hate me.
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seekeroftruth Original500© Member
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