|
||||||
 |
Recent Posts | Search by username | |
Contact Us | |
Login | |
Register |
 |
 |
|||||
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
| Moderated by: JustifiedByFaith, 1jester |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Author | Post | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
|
  |
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I posted this in another thread, but I knod of thought it deserved a thread of it's own. Does Hell exist, and if so, what is it like? I usually think of the Bolgias of Dante's Inferno, but sometimes I wonder. I have a recurring dream. A best friend of my youth, Kenny, an exuberant and wild Hawaiian kid had a hard life. He and I lived mostly parallel lives, but whenever we intersected (our families were best friends, although separated by distance) you can bet craziness and adventure followed. He was a man to whom limits had no meaning. (Neither did the word "moderation") but that's why I loved him. I can remember such things as passing a semi on the shoulder of a busy highway at 70+ in his TransAm. Waltzing through the gates of a CU football game and leading the security guards on a merry chase all around the stadium. Cliff diving in a mountain lake without checking for rocks...things like that. No matter what I did, when I hooked up with Kenny again, it was like long lost brothers being reunited. It was no surprise to me that when I learned to fly in the Air Force, I found out that Kenny had gotten his pilot's license as well and had become a crop duster. He and I married and had families, and drifted apart, but then we only saw each for small, brightly-lit periods anyway. One summer, my mother called to tell me that he had died. When I asked her how it happened, she told me that he had committed suicide. To this day, I have serious trouble understanding how someone who loved life so fiercely could have taken his own life. Worse yet, as a Christian, I believe that those who give away God's greatest gift go to Hell. I found out that he had been in a divorce and had lost custody of his daughters. (Most likely his volatile nature was partly to blame for this, but I never really found out why.) Apparently, distraught, he had barricaded himself in his home and had threatened the police officers that had been dispatched to check the problem. Now I knew that Kenny would never have shot a cop. Actually, I don't remember him ever hurting a living thing in his life, but of course, the police didn't know that. So they decided to wait him out. They closed the street, the cut off the phone and power. He sat alone in that dark house for 18 hours. I think if they had tried to talk to him, he might have easily been talked out, but they never tried. Eventually, he put the gun to his chest and pulled the trigger, shooting himself through the heart. (He was thinking of others to the very end, not wanting to shoot himself in the head for his mother's sake at the funeral. I know him well enough to deduce that.) Now for the dream...In the dream, I am transported to the outside of an old, stone and victorian-style house on the west side of a steep street. The house is about midway up the street and has a large porch on the front. In the dream, I walk past the police line arond the house. They shout at me, but do not stop me. I walk up to the front door and shot out, "Hey Kenny! It's me, Jon! Don't shoot me man! I'm coming in." As I walk into the house, all the curtains are drawn. I search through the rooms until I reach a back bedroom. There is Kenny, a lost look on his face and gun in his hand, he is sitting on the floor leaning against a wall. I approach him carefully, speaking softly. "Hey Kenny, what's up man? It's me, Jon. Take it easy, bro." He smiles a wan smile and looks up with sad eyes, "Hey dude. I never thought I'd see you here. Its all over, man. Everything. I lost my family." I try to think of something positive to say. "Hey, take is easy, man, its gonna be OK. You haven't shot anyone yet, all they got you for is some misdemeanor crap. We'll walk out of here and I'll get you a good lawyer, We'll get your visitation rights back, don't worry. We can fix this up, just don't do anything crazy, OK?" He looks at me and I think I see a tear in his eye, but he doesn't say anything. Still trying to stall, I say, "Hey as long as we're in here and the cops are out there, let's at least get them to buy us some pizza and cokes, what do you say?" He laughs and for a second I can see the old Kenny surface. "Sure man." I yell out the window that I'm talking to him and that we need food. The police bring pizza and I pick it up at the door telling them, "Just give me a little more time, he's about ready to come out." We eat the pizza, and laugh a bit about old times and past adventures. Especially the time that I came to town unexpectedly, found him at a pizza parlor. Whereupon he invited myself and my friend to join him for a feast at his expense, only to have him tell us after we had eaten a huge pizza, "Anyone got any money?" (After seeing our expression and knowing that we were all broke, he jumped up and ran out of the building, precipitating a wild chase by the pizza parlor staff.) After we finished our pizza, I tellhim that we need to go now and that the police won't wait forever. He looks at me quizzically and tells me, "Yes. yes they will Jon. They will wait forever...and so will I. This is Hell, Jon. I can't go with you." I stand speechless for a moment, then I reach to grab him and drag him with me as a feeling of dread washes over me. Then, in a flash. I am outside again. The dream is mostly always the same. It never changes. I have had it so many times that I could describe the pattern of the fabric on the kitchen chairs or the bedspread. I sometimes try to sneak in the back door, so I know that backyard too. I guess the strangest thing is the horrifying feeling that, if I was to go to the actual house, I'd find that it matched my dream exactly. But I have no idea why, other than the fact that I really loved Kenny and his zest for life, why I keep seeing him in his final moments. is Kenny truly in Hell? Is Hell different for each one of us? Do you make Hell by your actions in life? Do suicides go to Hell? I don't know. But I do know that my poor, dear friend Kenny is in Hell. I just feel it in my heart.
 A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
david1080 Guardian1000© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I always picture hell as a place burning. If you look in the end of a big barbecue pit at the coals burning and imagine a huge place that looks like that it what my minds eye sees. I'm not so sure that some don't experience a form of hell on earth. Just as a saved person that is in tune with God's will seems to have a little bit of heaven on earth, those so lost just may be experiencing hell in some form, perhaps anguish. From the way you described your friend, for matters to be so bad for him to take his own life, he had to be experiencing some form of hell on earth.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
he had to be experiencing some form of hell on earth. True, he certainly thought so. But from my point of view, he was healthy, he had money, and his family was still around. Eventually his daughters would have been 18 and then they could see him whenever he liked. Often, I think, we think we have it really bad, when actually things are not as dark as we think. Where there's life, there's hope, yes?
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
david1080 Guardian1000© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Saint wrote: he had to be experiencing some form of hell on earth. Loneliness itself seems like a form of hell. Health and money don't cure loneliness and sometimes family only adds to it. Loneliness can lead to depression and if not treated can lead to a feeling of no hope. Once you feel there is no hope, many times there only seems to be one way out. Sadly your friend took that road. You started off by saying that Kenny had a hard life. Was he saved?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
That's a funny thing. I don't know. I know he was baptized, and I know his family was Christian, they used to attend the same church with my parents in the 1960s. That's where we became friends. But I never knew him to attend a day of church other than his wedding day, which doesn't necessarily make him not a Christian, but is odd. Still, even if you are saved, if you commit suicide, you still go to Hell, don't you?
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
david1080 Guardian1000© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Saint wrote: That's a funny thing. I don't know. I know he was baptized, and I know his family was Christian, they used to attend the same church with my parents in the 1960s. That's where we became friends. At a risk of a big debate, some people think once saved always saved. I'm not real sure I agree with that. Perhaps once truly saved always saved but just saying "I believe" doesn't give someone the ability to act anyway they wish.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Seeing through the lies...
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Saint wrote:
Speculation Saint. God is not clear in His word on this one... I would say no. Being saved means what it say's.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
braddick Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member 
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I find it difficult to believe that an all knowing, all loving creator would allow you to exist knowing your final destination is a lake of fire. Better to have never been born or created at all. Also, how could a finite sin (such as non-belief) lead to infinite punishment?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
librtyhead Original500© Member 
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 .........What a cool avatar! Nice!
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Still, even if you are saved, if you commit suicide, you still go to Hell, don't you? I believe that once you are saved, you are saved from all sins, both past and future. By that logic a saved person who takes his own life is still saved.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This is a very sad story Saint..... You may have been in tune to his last moments. I think unless you have a very strong, and I mean very strong belief, you can imagine hell being a number of things. I consider myself a Christian, however I feel deep down inside that none of us will know for sure, until we die.................. I do agree that he had to feel no hope. At what level, is what we each have to decide. I'm sorry for your loss.  The best thing you can do now, Is say a little prayer that he's in Heaven. Then feel, that his hell is over...........Last edited on 07-21-2008 02:36 am by foxglovepress Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That's really a tough thing, Saint.  Here's how I feel about the whole theological issue: My understanding of Christian theology is that suicide is an unforgivable sin. But that doesn't really make sense to me. The Christian God is a god of mercy. Such a god would certainly show mercy to a person in such pain, and know that this person has reached the proverbial end of their rope. Such a god would, I think, show mercy to your friend. And punishing someone for all eternity for a very transitory lack of judgment doesn't sound all that right, either...
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
dazdncnfsd Guardian1000© Member 
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
So sorry about your friend saint. I've always thought of hell as a very lonely, isolated,dark place. Pitch black, nobody else around, nothing but yourself and your past sins to keep you company. Where you never go to sleep again for all eternity. It's really hard to say what it will actually be like. We have all heard of people that have seen the other side, but it's always the good side, at least for me. I have never heard of someone that seen hell when their at deaths door. I've always wondered why that is. I also don't know what to think about going to heaven or hell when someone takes their life. When you are saved and you sin, you ask Jesus to forgive you, right? How can you ask for forgivness after you take your own life? Thats a tough one because nobody knows the answer to that question for certain.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Here is a little Bible to back my position that a saved person who takes his life still goes to heaven: Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Hebrews 13:5 I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Psa 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Site Supporters | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Posts Of The Day | Mock Forums | WowClassic | |
Themes and most mods done in collaboration with: WowClassic - powerful forum software with the best support service.
We are partners with Forum Owner Services
Powered by - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez
We are partners with Forum Owner Services
Powered by - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez