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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > The Christian's Straight and Narrow Path > My review of the "Jesus Family Tomb" |
| Moderated by: JustifiedByFaith, 1jester |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
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1. FACTS On 28 March 1980 a tomb was discovered in Talpiot, Israel ( a suburb of Jerusalem) by workers building an apartment complex. The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) was called in and preceded to excavate the tomb over the course of several days. The tomb contained 10 ossuaries of which six were inscribed and four were not. An ossuary is in essence a “bone box” used to house human remains. After a person died, their remains were wrapped in fabric and placed in a temporary location (inside a tomb generally on a specially designed shelf) for a period of about one year to allow all soft tissue to decompose. After soft tissue decomposition was complete the person’s bones would then be placed in an ossuary which would be positioned in a permanent location, which would generally be in the same tomb. The use of ossuaries was confined to the period of c. 40 BC to AD 70. Christ was crucified in c. AD 30. The IAA cataloged the ossuaries as 80-500 to 80-509, they are inscribed as follows: 80-500 – Mariamene 80-501 – Judah, son of Jesus 80-502 – Matthew 80-503 – Jesus, son of Joseph 80-504 – Yosa 80-505 – Maria 80-506 – not inscribed 80-507 – not inscribed 80-508 – not inscribed 80-509 – not inscribed 2. CLAIMS Simcha Jacobovici began his investigation of the Talpiot tomb in 2002, he enlisted the help of Charles Pellegrino, James Cameron and others. Jacobovici seems to have concluded early on that this was the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth and some members of his family. He states that the odds that this is not the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth are 1 in 600. He concludes that an ossuary with the inscription “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus” was also from this tomb and that this would increase the odds that this is not the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth to 1 in 32,000. He concludes based on DNA testing that ossuary 80-500 inscribed “Mariamene” is that of Mary Magdalene, that she was married to Jesus and that they had a son named Judah (ossuary 80-501). 3. HISTORICAL PROBLEMS While Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem and the Gospels record that He was placed in a tomb located near Jerusalem, His family was from Nazareth and it would be expected that they would have been buried in that area. Jacobovici uses Apocryphal sources such as the “Gospel of Phillip” to further some of his claims regarding the relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus and to draw conclusions on the life of Mary Magdalene. The “Gospel of Phillip” and other Apocryphal sources used were not written until the 3rd and 4th centuries. 4. STATISTICAL PROBLEMS Jacobovici concludes, based on the collection of names present in the Talpiot tomb, that the odds are 1 in 600 that this tomb does not belong to Jesus of Nazareth. He does this by calculating that number of times that a name found in this tomb has been recorded on other ossuaries times each name. Example: “Maria” is found on 1 in 24 ossuaries, “Mariamene” on 1 of 193, “Jesus, son of Jospeh” on 1 in 79, et cetera. 24 x 193 x 79 = 365,928. These numbers are then corrected downward to account for known family members of Jesus who were not found in the tomb, uninscribed ossuaries and other factors and odds of 1 in 600 are reached. A very conservative approach was taken in calculating these numbers, but a flawed premise was used in assigning values to several of the names found. Mary was a very common name in First Century Judaea, about 1 in 4 females of that period were named Mary. There are a number of women named Mary recorded in the Gospels, two of whom are Mary, the mother of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, because of these facts very little statistical value can be placed on the “Maria” and Mariamene” ossuaries found in the Talpiot tomb. It is assumed that Matthew was a relative of Mary, the mother of Jesus because she had several people named Matthew in her family history. However, there is no historic basis for assigning any statistical value to an ossuary inscribed “Matthew” that is contemporary with Mary and her family. It is assumed that the ossuary inscribed “Yosa” belonged to a brother of Jesus who is refered to by that name in the Bible. However, as there is an ossuary inscribed “Jesus, son of Joseph” in this tomb and “Yosa” is a short version of “Joseph,” it is fair to assume that the “Yosa” ossuary belongs to the “Jospeh” mentioned on the “Jesus” ossuary. As such no additional statistical value should be placed on the “Yosa” ossuary. As there is no mention of a “Judah, son of Jesus” in the Gospels or any other record of the life of Jesus, Jacobovici correctly assigns no statistical value to that ossuary. That leaves only the “Jesus, son of Joseph” ossuary. 1 in 79 ossuaries have the inscription “Jesus, son of Joseph” on them. This seems to place the odds that this is not the ossuary that contained the bones of Jesus of Nazareth at 1 in 79, however there are at least two other ossuaries that bear the same inscription, are the odds 1 in 79 that each of these is not the ossuary that contained the bones of the Biblical Jesus? As there are at least three ossuaries that bear the inscription “Jesus, son of Joseph,” so the odds against this being the ossuary of Jesus would be 3 to 1. If you wanted to factor in a Mary in this tomb to odds would rise to 1 in 1.2. The fact is Jesus, Joseph and Mary were all very common names in First Century Judaea and it should not be seen as unusual that these names would be found together in a tomb of this size. 5. DNA PROBLEMS Small bone fragments were recovered from ossuaries 80-500 and 80-503. These fragments were sent to a DNA lab for analysis and mitochrondial DNA was extracted and tested. These tests showed that Mariamene and Jesus, Son of Joseph were not mother and son and that they did not have the same mother. Due to the limits of what mitochrondial DNA can show, this was the only data that could be obtained from these tests. Jacobovici inferred from these tests that Mariamene and Jesus, son of Joseph must have been husband and wife, however this is a flawed conclusion. The DNA testing does not preclude that Mariamene could have been married to any of the males in this tomb and not a blood relative or that Jesus, son of Joseph could have been married to any of the females in this tomb and not a blood relative. It also does not rule out that Jesus, son of Joseph could have been the father, grandfather, uncle et cetera of Mariamene. 6. PROBLEMS WITH LINKING THE JAMES OSSUARY TO THE TALPIOT TOMB Jacobovici uses samples from the patina on the James ossuary and samples from two of the Talpiot ossuaries to suggest that the James ossuary in the missing 10th ossuary from this tomb. This would increase the odds of this not being the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth to 1 in 32,000. It is true that the patina on the James ossuary is quite similar to that found on the Talpiot ossuaries. However, Amos Kloner, the archeologist who supervised this excavation, says that the 10th ossuary was not inscribed and that it is not missing. He states that it was given to the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. There is also a photograph of the James ossuary that is printed on paper that a leading photo lab states was used in the mid 1970s, the Talpiot tomb was not discovered until 1980. 7. CONCLUSION I believe that it is important for Christians to keep an open mind with regard to finds in the Holy Land. These finds can be useful in terms of the information they shed on life in Biblical times. I also do not believe that Christians should avoid looking at new facts when they come to light. I know several people who refused to watch the Discovery Channel program on the so called “Jesus Tomb.” To me it is unfortunate that Christians would feel threatened by facts. If the claims of Simcha Jacobovici were so strong that they would damage our faith, those would be facts we should want to know about. If on the other hand his claims had holes in them (as I believe is the case), confronting those claims with sound facts can only be helpful to those Christians who might otherwise be taken in. While the discovery of a tomb bearing the names Jesus, Mary and Joseph is interesting, there is no reason to connect the contents of this tomb to the Biblical Jesus. When asked about this tomb, Amos Kloner said "It makes a great story for a TV film. But it's completely impossible. It's nonsense. There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb. They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle class family from the 1st century.”
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1jester Pioneer100© Member  Pilgrim Sojourner
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Thank you for the review, Aethelred. One more fact is that Jesus died for our sins, and rose to life on the third day, after which He visited with disciples and other witnesses and then ascended to heaven.
 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. -Matthew 22:37-39 |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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JERUSALEM (AP) -- A prominent scholar looking into the factual basis of a popular but widely criticized documentary film that claims to have located the tomb of Jesus said Tuesday that a crucial piece of evidence filmmakers used to support their claim is a mistake. Stephen Pfann, a textual scholar and paleographer at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, said he has released a paper claiming the makers of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" were mistaken when they identified an ancient ossuary from the cave as belonging to the New Testament's Mary Magdalene. Produced by Oscar-winning director James Cameron and directed by Simcha Jacobovici, the documentary has drawn intense media coverage for its claims challenging accepted Christian dogma. ([url=javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/tech/2007/03/14/wedeman.jesus.tomb.wrong.cnn','2007/03/28');]Watch Pfann explain why the stone boxes are not that of Jesus and Mary Magdalene[/url] [url=javascript:cnnVideo('play','javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/tech/2007/03/14/wedeman.jesus.tomb.wrong.cnn','2007/03/28');','2007/03/14');]  [/url])Despite widespread ridicule from scholars, it drew more than 4 million viewers when it aired on the Discovery Channel on March 4. A companion book, "The Jesus Family Tomb," has rocketed to sixth place on the New York Times nonfiction best-seller list. The film and book suggest that a first-century ossuary found in a south Jerusalem cave in 1980 contained the remains of Jesus, contradicting the Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven. Ossuaries are stone boxes used at the time to store the bones of the dead. The filmmakers also suggest that Mary Magdalene was buried in the tomb, that she and Jesus were married, and that an ossuary labeled "Judah son of Jesus" belonged to their son. The scholars who analyzed the Greek inscription on one of the ossuaries after its discovery read it as "Mariamene e Mara," meaning "Mary the teacher" or "Mary the master." Before the movie was screened, Jacobovici said that particular inscription provided crucial support for his claim. The name Mariamene is rare, and in some early Christian texts it is believed to refer to Mary Magdalene. But having analyzed the inscription, Pfann, who made a brief appearance in the film as an ossuary expert, published a detailed article on his university's Web site asserting that it doesn't read "Mariamene" at all. The inscription, Pfann said, is made up of two names inscribed by two different hands: the first, "Mariame," was inscribed in a formal Greek script, and later, when the bones of another woman were added to the box, another scribe using a different cursive script added the words "kai Mara," meaning "and Mara." Mara is a different form of the name Martha. According to Pfann's reading, the ossuary did not house the bones of "Mary the teacher," but rather of two women, "Mary and Martha." "In view of the above, there is no longer any reason to be tempted to link this ossuary...to Mary Magdalene or any other person in Biblical, non-Biblical or church tradition," Pfann wrote. In the interest of telling a good story, Pfann said, the documentary engaged in some "fudging" of the facts. "James Cameron is a great guru of science fiction, and he's taking it to a new level with Simcha Jacobovici. You take a little bit of science, spin a good yarn out of it and you get another Terminator or Life of Brian," Pfann said. In Israel Tuesday for a screening of the film, the Toronto-based Jacobovici welcomed Pfann's criticism, saying "every inscription should be re-examined." But Jacobovici said scholars who researched the ossuary in the past agreed with the film's reading. "Anyone who looks at it can see that the script was written by the same hand," Jacobovici said. Jacobovici has faced criticism much tougher than Pfann's academic critique. The film has been termed "archeo-porn," and Jacobovici has been accused of "pimping the Bible." Jacobovici attributes most of the criticism to scholars' discomfort with journalists "casting light into their ossuary monopoly." "What we're doing is democratizing this knowledge, and this is driving some people crazy," Jacobovici said.
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g097103 Original500© Member
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>One more fact is that Jesus died for our sins, and rose to life on the third day, after which >He visited with disciples and other witnesses and then ascended to heaven. That is not established fact as no contemporaneous documentation of any such event exists, and those folks at that time were very active recordkeepers. It is faith, which is something completely different.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Jesus...above every other name
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g097103 wrote: >One more fact is that Jesus died for our sins, and rose to life on the third day, after which >He visited with disciples and other witnesses and then ascended to heaven. Actually g097103, it's been well established by many eye witnesses and testimony. Some witnesses who walked and talked with Jesus and witnessed His very resurrection and assention and wrote about it. In the court of law, is doesn't take but one or two witnesses to make a credible case. The apostle Paul at the time spoke that He (Jesus) was seen alive after His Resurrection by over 500 people and some who were still available and alive for questioning during that time.  You are welcome to bring to the table any evidence that disproves the biblical testimonies and eye witness accounts... One not need "contempraneous documentation" to make Jesus credible.Please also remember the tone for discussions on this Forum as presented in the Introduction. Thank You Last edited on 12:33 am by JustifiedByFaith Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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Has anyone else noticed how this issue has fallen off the radar? The Discovery Channel has not shown the program again, the book has become hard to find in bookstores, it is like the whole thing never happened. I wonder why?
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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Aethelred wrote: Has anyone else noticed how this issue has fallen off the radar? The Discovery Channel has not shown the program again, the book has become hard to find in bookstores, it is like the whole thing never happened. I wonder why? Because it had no meat or credibility. The enemy just pulls up bits and pieces of lies to cause division and confusion and deception and then he is off to planning the next deception.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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I really thought this one was going to be a BIG issue, as is so often the case I was wrong!
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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Aethelred wrote: I really thought this one was going to be a BIG issue, as is so often the case I was wrong! I don't think your wrong very often. As a matter of fact, your like a ditto most the time. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > The Christian's Straight and Narrow Path > My review of the "Jesus Family Tomb" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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