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sirlamre
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Posted: 01:57 am |
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You forgot the "Kennedy wasn't assassinated, he just decided to leave and go with Elvis" option.
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me.
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BUtterfield 8
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Posted: 02:42 am |
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Lady Cop wrote: it may sound naive, but i read the entire 14-pound warren report, and i do believe he was a nutjob who acted alone. and i'm NOT naive. i question everything. Gerald Ford forced to admit the Warren Report fictionalized
But is the Warren report up to snuff? (pardon the pun)
Cited under "fair use". By MIKE FEINSILBER
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (July 2) - Thirty-three years ago, Gerald R. Ford took pen in
hand and changed - ever so slightly - the Warren Commission's key sentence
on the place where a bullet entered John F. Kennedy's body when he was
killed in Dallas.
The effect of Ford's change was to strengthen the commission's conclusion
that a single bullet passed through Kennedy and severely wounded Texas
Gov. John Connally - a crucial element in its finding that Lee Harvey
Oswald was the sole gunman.
A small change, said Ford on Wednesday when it came to light, one intended
to clarify meaning, not alter history.
''My changes had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory,'' he said in a
telephone interview from Beaver Creek, Colo. ''My changes were only an
attempt to be more precise.''
But still, his editing was seized upon by members of the conspiracy
community, which rejects the commission's conclusion that Oswald acted
alone.
''This is the most significant lie in the whole Warren Commission
report,'' said Robert D. Morningstar, a computer systems specialist in New
York City who said he has studied the assassination since it occurred and
written an Internet book about it.
The effect of Ford's editing, Morningstar said, was to suggest that a
bullet struck Kennedy in the neck, ''raising the wound two or three
inches. Without that alteration, they could never have hoodwinked the
public as to the true number of assassins.''
If the bullet had hit Kennedy in the back, it could not have struck
Connolly in the way the commission said it did, he said.
The Warren Commission concluded in 1964 that a single bullet - fired by a
''discontented'' Oswald - passed through Kennedy's body and wounded his
fellow motorcade passenger, Connally, and that a second, fatal bullet,
fired from the same place, tore through Kennedy's head.
The assassination of the president occurred Nov. 22, 1963, in Dallas;
Oswald was arrested that day but was shot and killed two days later as he
was being transferred from the city jail to the county jail.
Conspiracy theorists reject the idea that a single bullet could have hit
both Kennedy and Connally and done such damage. Thus they argue that a
second gunman must have been involved.
Ford's changes tend to support the single-bullet theory by making a
specific point that the bullet entered Kennedy's body ''at the back of his
neck'' rather than in his uppermost back, as the commission staff
originally wrote.
Ford's handwritten notes were contained in 40,000 pages of records kept by
J. Lee Rankin, chief counsel of the Warren Commission.
They were made public Wednesday by the Assassination Record Review Board,
an agency created by Congress to amass all relevant evidence in the case.
The documents will be available to the public in the National Archives.
The staff of the commission had written: ''A bullet had entered his back
at a point slightly above the shoulder and to the right of the spine.''
Ford suggested changing that to read: ''A bullet had entered the back of
his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine.''
The final report said: ''A bullet had entered the base of the back of his
neck slightly to the right of the spine.''
Ford, then House Republican leader and later elevated to the presidency
with the 1974 resignation of Richard Nixon, is the sole surviving member
of the seven-member commission chaired by Chief Justice Earl Warren.
{snip}
AP-NY-07-02-97 1826EDT |
Note bullet hole lower down on back. Had the bullet which entered at this point been the same bullet which the Warren Report claims then exited through the knot of JFK's tie, it would have passed well above John Connally's head.
One thing is clear. That hole is nowehere near where JFK's neck was. It was in his back.
Photo of JFK's suit coat, showing that the bullet hole in the shirt and suit coat line up, discrediting the Warren Commmsion claim that the shirt had "bunched up" around JFK's neck when the bullet hit.
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Lady Cop
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Posted: 02:49 am |
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i did not post the comment re: gerald ford. would you mind editing it out of my quote please? Last edited on 03:06 am by Lady Cop
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BUtterfield 8
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Posted: 04:13 am |
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Lady Cop wrote: i did not post the comment re: gerald ford. would you mind editing it out of my quote please?
No you didn't, the quote line is in wrong place of this article.....a glitch I suspect
But is the Warren report up to snuff?
(pardon the pun)
Cited under "fair use". By MIKE FEINSILBER
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (July 2) - Thirty-three years ago, Gerald R. Ford took pen in
hand and changed - ever so slightly - the Warren Commission's key sentence
on the place where a bullet entered John F. Kennedy's body when he was
killed in Dallas.
The effect of Ford's change was to strengthen the commission's conclusion
that a single bullet passed through Kennedy and severely wounded Texas
Gov. John Connally - a crucial element in its finding that Lee Harvey
Oswald was the sole gunman.
A small change, said Ford on Wednesday when it came to light, one intended
to clarify meaning, not alter history.
''My changes had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory,'' he said in a
telephone interview from Beaver Creek, Colo. ''My changes were only an
attempt to be more precise.''
But still, his editing was seized upon by members of the conspiracy
community, which rejects the commission's conclusion that Oswald acted
alone.
''This is the most significant lie in the whole Warren Commission
report,'' said Robert D. Morningstar, a computer systems specialist in New
York City who said he has studied the assassination since it occurred and
written an Internet book about it.
The effect of Ford's editing, Morningstar said, was to suggest that a
bullet struck Kennedy in the neck, ''raising the wound two or three
inches. Without that alteration, they could never have hoodwinked the
public as to the true number of assassins.''
If the bullet had hit Kennedy in the back, it could not have struck
Connolly in the way the commission said it did, he said.
The Warren Commission concluded in 1964 that a single bullet - fired by a
''discontented'' Oswald - passed through Kennedy's body and wounded his
fellow motorcade passenger, Connally, and that a second, fatal bullet,
fired from the same place, tore through Kennedy's head.
The assassination of the president occurred Nov. 22, 1963, in Dallas;
Oswald was arrested that day but was shot and killed two days later as he
was being transferred from the city jail to the county jail.
Conspiracy theorists reject the idea that a single bullet could have hit
both Kennedy and Connally and done such damage. Thus they argue that a
second gunman must have been involved.
Ford's changes tend to support the single-bullet theory by making a
specific point that the bullet entered Kennedy's body ''at the back of his
neck'' rather than in his uppermost back, as the commission staff
originally wrote.
Ford's handwritten notes were contained in 40,000 pages of records kept by
J. Lee Rankin, chief counsel of the Warren Commission.
They were made public Wednesday by the Assassination Record Review Board,
an agency created by Congress to amass all relevant evidence in the case.
The documents will be available to the public in the National Archives.
The staff of the commission had written: ''A bullet had entered his back
at a point slightly above the shoulder and to the right of the spine.''
Ford suggested changing that to read: ''A bullet had entered the back of
his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine.''
The final report said: ''A bullet had entered the base of the back of his
neck slightly to the right of the spine.''
Ford, then House Republican leader and later elevated to the presidency
with the 1974 resignation of Richard Nixon, is the sole surviving member
of the seven-member commission chaired by Chief Justice Earl Warren.
{snip}
AP-NY-07-02-97 1826EDT |
Note bullet hole lower down on back. Had the bullet which entered at this point been the same bullet which the Warren Report claims then exited through the knot of JFK's tie, it would have passed well above John Connally's head.
One thing is clear. That hole is nowehere near where JFK's neck was. It was in his back.
Photo of JFK's suit coat, showing that the bullet hole in the shirt and suit coat line up, discrediting the Warren Commmsion claim that the shirt had "bunched up" around JFK's neck when the bullet hit.
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Brian
Grand Poobah of Moderation
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Posted: 06:01 am |
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Bumping this because it came up in another thread.
I just don't think the physics of the shot in Zapruder 312-313 match up with a shot from behind.
Now, I'm not saying I have any idea who shot Kennedy, but I don't see how that shot could have come from Oswald.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."
-- "A Long December", Counting Crows
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Aethelred
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Posted: 09:38 pm |
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Brian wrote: Bumping this because it came up in another thread.
I just don't think the physics of the shot in Zapruder 312-313 match up with a shot from behind.
Now, I'm not saying I have any idea who shot Kennedy, but I don't see how that shot could have come from Oswald.
I have seen film of a shot fired from the same type of gun into a dead body from behind and above, in that film the head jerked back just like Kennedy's did. In the 1980s NOVA also did a test like that with the same result, the head jerked backwards.
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Aethelred
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Posted: 09:42 pm |
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Here are two videos using a melon, on impact the melon moves in the direction of the shot:
Video Test 1
Video Test 2
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JustifiedByFaith
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Posted: 04:34 am |
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roymerr wrote: One thing i do know about the Kennedy murder. There are believers on both sides of the issue. And argueing with them is just like argueing about religion. It can be a lot of fun and very interesting but neither side is going to convince the other.
I disagree. People don't learn and become informed being silent and trying to avoid waves. Interaction and debate of facts and figures often reveals truths and changes beliefs.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."
Matthew 24:4
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Aethelred
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Posted: 04:53 am |
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: roymerr wrote: One thing i do know about the Kennedy murder. There are believers on both sides of the issue. And argueing with them is just like argueing about religion. It can be a lot of fun and very interesting but neither side is going to convince the other.
I disagree. People don't learn and become informed being silent and trying to avoid waves. Interaction and debate of facts and figures often reveals truths and changes beliefs.
I could not agree more JBF.
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Brian
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Posted: 05:01 am |
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Aethelred wrote: Here are two videos using a melon, on impact the melon moves in the direction of the shot:
Video Test 1
Video Test 2
Thanks Aethelred.
Those were interesting videos. I'd still like to see the cadaver tests, though. (I'll look around for them.) The video did have the one quality I was looking for: the melon traveled towards the bullet. But the other part I was looking for was the major damage being done to the back rather than the front (which is what I think you'd assume, during a shot from the back). The melon just kind of exploded, so that part was inconclusive for me.
That certainly does make it a lot less open and shut than I had assumed, though.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."
-- "A Long December", Counting Crows
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Aethelred
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Posted: 05:21 am |
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Brian, physics can play some odd tricks and this is one of them.
With regard to the exit wound to Kennedy's head: Take a look at frames 314-317 of the Zapruder film. Kennedy is leaning forward with his head sort of down. The area of the exit wound I believe is consistant with a shot from above and behind given his posture at the time of impact. He was hit in the occipital area and the exit wound appears to be front and right. It would ne nice if the Zapruder film were more clear (in a way, it is ghastly as is) and we could answer these questions
If you can find any other films that bear on this I'd love to see them.
BTW - With the corpse shot that I mentioned above, it has been years and my memory is a little fuzzy, but they may have used a pig for one test and balistic gel molded with human bones for another. I think it was NOVA that used the human skull. It seems like there may have been a test with a full human corpse, but I don't want to swear to that.
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Brian
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Posted: 06:11 am |
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Aethelred wrote: Brian, physics can play some odd tricks and this is one of them.
With regard to the exit wound to Kennedy's head: Take a look at frames 314-317 of the Zapruder film. Kennedy is leaning forward with his head sort of down. The area of the exit wound I believe is consistant with a shot from above and behind given his posture at the time of impact. He was hit in the occipital area and the exit wound appears to be front and right. It would ne nice if the Zapruder film were more clear (in a way, it is ghastly as is) and we could answer these questions
If you can find any other films that bear on this I'd love to see them.
BTW - With the corpse shot that I mentioned above, it has been years and my memory is a little fuzzy, but they may have used a pig for one test and balistic gel molded with human bones for another. I think it was NOVA that used the human skull. It seems like there may have been a test with a full human corpse, but I don't want to swear to that.
I think we need to get MythBusters on the case!
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."
-- "A Long December", Counting Crows
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Wolverine
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Posted: 11:19 pm |
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Brian wrote:
If you look at the Zapruder film, you can clearly see Kennedy's head snapping back, and the back of his head being blown off. If it was Oswald who fired that shot, Kennedy's head should have been knocked forward, and the front of his skull been knocked out. It seems like pretty simple physics to me...
the US Secret Service was the first Federal entity to test out the new M-16 rifle. which fired a .223 caliber "tumbling" round. from some of the demonstrations i have seen, when a person is shot with a "tumbling" round(end-over-end), they fall toward the bullet. I think Oswald acted alone, and the SS agents were spooked by the gun shot, finger slipped on the trigger, and BANG! "back and to the left"
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Aethelred
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Posted: 11:33 pm |
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I think Oswald acted alone, and the SS agents were spooked by the gun shot, finger slipped on the trigger, and BANG! "back and to the left"
I am not sure I follow, are you saying a Secret Service agent fired the fatal shot in error?
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Brian
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Posted: 01:13 am |
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Aethelred wrote: Brian, physics can play some odd tricks and this is one of them.
With regard to the exit wound to Kennedy's head: Take a look at frames 314-317 of the Zapruder film. Kennedy is leaning forward with his head sort of down. The area of the exit wound I believe is consistant with a shot from above and behind given his posture at the time of impact. He was hit in the occipital area and the exit wound appears to be front and right. It would ne nice if the Zapruder film were more clear (in a way, it is ghastly as is) and we could answer these questions
If you can find any other films that bear on this I'd love to see them.
BTW - With the corpse shot that I mentioned above, it has been years and my memory is a little fuzzy, but they may have used a pig for one test and balistic gel molded with human bones for another. I think it was NOVA that used the human skull. It seems like there may have been a test with a full human corpse, but I don't want to swear to that.
Hi, Aethelred.
I just remembered the other difference I saw with the melon shot, as opposed to the actual Kennedy assassination. I don't know how much effect this would have, obviously, (I do assume it had some) but the angle of the headshot of the melon is obviously all wrong, considering where Kennedy was in relation to Oswald. I would think that a valid test would have to start with the angles of the shots being the same.
I'll start looking for that video now. 
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."
-- "A Long December", Counting Crows
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