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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: UsedToRide wrote:Brian wrote:I agree that people on both sides (or all sides, since there's probably more than two ways to look at this) have their own reasons to feel the way they do. Each person, though, is responsible for their own ideas, and subject to criticism for them. How one arrives at one's viewpoint is only background. What counts is the idea procuced from that experience. So........what exactly are you saying Brian? That we all conform to the same "idea" because our own ideas may not mesh well with everyone else?
 Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: I'm not saying that a person is responsible for what brings them to their ideas ... However, they're responsible for the ideas which these experiences give them ... I'm responsible for that idea, regardless of the events that got me there. Sympathy for the event that got you there does not impart sympathy for the idea. I don't know about that. You might be responsible for any actions you take though. Some ideas from events thrust upon you are involuntary, instinctive, and natural. For example, someone might do something to someone I love and make me want to kill them just like it would a billion other people. I am responsible for whether or not I act upon it. but I am not responsible for the idea. I am not responsible for an idea toward an attractive female - that is involuntary. I am not responsible for ingrained, innate heterosexual human ideas. It's like saying I am responsible for being human, as if it was a choice. I don't have a choice about the idea of blocking or stopping you if you keep swinging punches at me. If someone of a specific race attacked me and I have negative thoughts after that (like fear, dislike, etc.) that can be simply and naturally reflexive and involuntary. I am responsible for not keeping my behavior in check, though. I am not responsible for the idea that I want to lock my door because someone keeps coming into my house when they should not. THEY are responsible for putting that idea in my head and causing me to have the expected, natural, involuntary and reflexive thought. If I shut it while their head is in the doorway is another story, though.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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foxglovepress wrote: Brian wrote:UsedToRide wrote:Brian wrote:I agree that people on both sides (or all sides, since there's probably more than two ways to look at this) have their own reasons to feel the way they do. Each person, though, is responsible for their own ideas, and subject to criticism for them. How one arrives at one's viewpoint is only background. What counts is the idea procuced from that experience. I'm not talking about conforming, necessarily. People are free to have their own ideas. What I'm saying is that one's ideas are not immune from criticism simply because there's a horrible event attached to them. For example: Person 1: "I think all African-Americans should either be hunted down and killed, or shipped off to Africa." Person 2: "How can you say that?! That's monstrous!" Person 1: "You have no right to judge me. My wife was brutally attacked!" A person's experience have nothing to do, necessarily, with how acceptable their ideas are. The idea has to stand on its own merit. As far as Frank's point: Different people have different reactions to events. Pope John Paul II met with his attempted assassin and forgave him. That certainly wouldn't be a typical reaction, right? But because we are beings with free will, we are responsible for our own ideas, for good or ill. Note that I'm speaking entirely in moral terms, and not in legal terms. Everyone is (at least, in the U.S....) free to have their own ideas. It's only when you act on them, or convince others to act on them, that you generally get into legal jeopardy.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: As far as Frank's point: Different people have different reactions to events. Pope John Paul II met with his attempted assassin and forgave him. That certainly wouldn't be a typical reaction, right? But because we are beings with free will, we are responsible for our own ideas, for good or ill. Yeah, but that is a reaction, we were talking about ideas. People are not responsible for all ideas they have, many are natural, reflexive, innate, and involuntary, like in the examples I gave. How you act or react is another thing, often.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: foxglovepress wrote: I'm still not sure where you're coming from Brian. I hear two different views from you. 1. A person's ideas. 2. If they act on it. Well first, I still disagree with giving ones opinion. Sure it's open for comment or even judgement. Non the less, just because it doesn't mesh with everyone else's, means Diddle! We don't need to please everyone! Second, if we act on our feelings in an illegal manner, then we pay a price, as we should. Last edited on 09:25 pm by foxglovepress Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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foxglovepress wrote: Brian wrote:foxglovepress wrote: FGP: All I'm saying is that where a person's ideas come from have very little to do with how we should respond to those ideas. A bad idea is a bad idea, regardless of what brings it about. Sure, the person is free to have the idea, but to put that person's idea beyond criticism because of where it came from isn't reasonable. To put this in concrete terms, if a person says, "All people who satisfy Criteria X should be exterminated", does it really matter what experiences they had to bring them to that idea? I was only reacting to what I saw as an attempt to excuse someone's bad idea by chalking it up to their experiences. The issue is the idea, not the experiences that lead up to it. Frank: I'm not sure that anything involuntary is actually an "idea". To get arroused around an attractive woman, for example, is an involuntary reaction, and doesn't require any thought. If you have the idea to assault the woman, that's another story. And if you suggested that to someone, they would be within their rights to criticize you for it, even if they, too found the woman attractive. It might be entirely natural to have negative feelings about a certain race based on a past experience with a member of that race. But that doesn't mean it's not something you can control, or that it would be inappropriate for someone to call  if you made racist remarks.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: Frank: Is a single heterosexual man responsible for the idea of wanting to talk to or get to know an attractive woman? Wouldn't they be an unnatural freak of nature if they didn't have that idea, generally speaking? If someone is hitting me how am I responsible for the idea of hitting them back when that is the natural, innate, involuntary thought that is generated from such human experience? My point is - aren't there lots of reflexive, instinctive, natural, and involuntary thoughts generated that people are not responsible for? I don't see how my examples don't show this. At some point, many ideas come down to innate human reactions and it seems invalid to hold people "responsible" for those ideas. Even in the world of racism there is a grey area, since there can be truth in some generalizations, especially when they are backed up by experience - including positive ones.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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24HourNut wrote: Brian wrote:Frank: Even in the world of racism there is a grey area, since there can be truth in some generalizations, especially when they are backed up by experience - including positive ones. Sure, there's truth in some generalizations. But that still doesn't mean you're not responsible for the words that come out of your mouth. (It might just make those words easier to defend.)
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Hi Brian - but I didn't say take the initiative to talk to the woman, that is action, not idea ... I am just talking about the idea ... same for self-defense, the idea is automatic ... and the racist generalizations were about ideas, not speaking the words ... I think you are mixing actions with ideas in your above post.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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24HourNut wrote: Hi Brian - but I didn't say take the initiative to talk to the woman, that is action, not idea ... I am just talking about the idea ... same for self-defense, the idea is automatic ... and the racist generalizations were about ideas, not speaking the words ... I think you are mixing actions with ideas in your above post. The idea to talk to the woman is not instinctive and innate. It might be considered "natural" in the sense that it's the expected reaction, but it's not automatic, and you are responsible for the idea. (People have many ideas of how to deal with women.) The "idea" of self-defense is, indeed, automatic. There's no thought involved. But I wouldn't call that an "idea", per se. That's a reaction. It doesn't require thought. And that's the distinction. Becoming arroused by an attractive woman is an instinctive (for heterosexual males) response, not requiring thought. The idea to go up and talk to the woman (well before you've actually done it) is something different. Remember, the initial idea we were talking about was a completely abstract idea (sterilization and euthanasia of the disabled). That's a far cry from any kind of instinctive response. Generally speaking, we don't hold people culpable for things they do in self-defense, and that's partially because people instinctively do what they need to do. If you want to split hairs, one could argue that having a thought flicker across your mind isn't something you should be held responsible for. But holding on to a thought and making it your own is something you are culpable for. And any idea you express openly certainly makes you responsible for it (which is what this was about originally).
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: The idea to talk to the woman is not instinctive and innate. It might be considered "natural" in the sense that it's the expected reaction, but it's not automatic, and you are responsible for the idea. (People have many ideas of how to deal with women.) Understood on most of the other stuff but COME ON, it's not an instinctive and innate idea to get closer to the one you are sexually attracted to? That is a basic primitive innate thing. We, primates, animals, are wired to be attracted to people sexually. Attracted means you want to get physically close and touch. There is absolutely nothing original or worthy of responsibility or credit in a teenage boy having the idea to get to a girl in some form. One doesn't have to try or be raised a certain way for that idea to come about. That is an idea 99.9999% of heterosexual males are destined to have. They are not responsible for that, because that is totally innate and natural, predictable and instinctive, a byproduct of a strong sexual system. HOW you go about it or whether or not you go about it is what you are responsible for. But having the idea to get to a potential mate? What's next, holding male dogs responsible for the idea of getting out of the yard to the nearby female in heat they smell?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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24HourNut wrote: Brian wrote:The idea to talk to the woman is not instinctive and innate. It might be considered "natural" in the sense that it's the expected reaction, but it's not automatic, and you are responsible for the idea. (People have many ideas of how to deal with women.) Ah, but I didn't say that the idea "to get to a potential mate" wasn't instinctive. What I said was that the idea "to talk to the woman" is not instinctive and innate. There are, as I said, many ways to talk to women, and many approaches to getting a mate. Wooing a woman is only one way. (And it can even be seen as a particularly Western way, at that. There are cultures in which mates don't even meet before their marriages.) You have to separate the innate response (sexual attraction, in the case we're now discussing) from the idea which that response inspires. There are some males who would, at the first hint of sexual attraction, consider sexual assault a valid idea.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: Ah, but I didn't say that the idea "to get to a potential mate" wasn't instinctive. What I said was that the idea "to talk to the woman" is not instinctive and innate. My friend, we will have to agree to disagree because few things are more instinctive and innate than a heterosexual male wanting to communicate with a female they are attracted to. It is not some idea that they are responsible for. Everyone expects single heterosexual men to want to talk to attractive single females. You can't hold a heterosexual male responsible for wanting to go talk to a woman. Give me a break! 
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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24HourNut wrote: Brian wrote:Ah, but I didn't say that the idea "to get to a potential mate" wasn't instinctive. What I said was that the idea "to talk to the woman" is not instinctive and innate. I don't mind disagreeing with you on this. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
