|
||||||
 |
Recent Posts | Search by username | |
Contact Us | |
Login | |
Register |
 |
 |
|||||
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > An interesting perspective on what GWB has NOT done in properly defining the Iraq mission to his com |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page: 1 2   |
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Author | Post | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
|
  |
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A US Marine colonel on staff at the War College speaks about what GWB has not told his commanders, and why that will cause failure in Iraq. http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA476412 Click the link This is the PDF, but you might need to visit the webpage above. http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA476412
 Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hmm... having problems with both. Maybe you can copy and paste some text.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I was able to download and read the pdf file. I think the central point of this paper is off the mark. This paper seems to define operational success as establishing a stable democratic government and society. If that is the definition intended by the author then the military and its commanders are only part of the formula for achieving "operational success". Strictly speaking the main job of the military commanders is to organize and utilize the forces they have available to them to establish a secure environment in which the process of building that democratic government and society can go forward. In simplistic terms that means finding the most efficient means of killing or otherwise controlling those that are violently opposing the establishment of that government. It is up to the military commanders, not civilians, to figure how how to accomplish that task. There are political, social, environmental and other concerns that are part of the decision as to how military forces can be used. During the Civil War and during WWII these considerations were not as important in fomulating military strategy as they are in Iraq today. In some wars you went into a battle and destroyed everything with little or no regard for colateral damage. The goal was complete and utter defeat of an enemy. We could do that in Iraq with a hydrogen bomb or two. In the short term we would have achieved military operational success but it would be at the expense of long term operational success.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
aknow Original500© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is no war, there is no mission. A war has an achievable goal. A mission has a finite purpose. There is an enormous quagmire with nothing in sight but lies and deceit from the Americans interested in staying in Iraq.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sam Original500© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Yabut, look how well the Surge is working.... There were a lot of intelligent folk back in the first Gulf War time, and before this fiasco started that warned us about this invasion. It just took one very ignorant President to get er done.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sam The problem early on was the misconception that change in Iraq was going to be quick and easy. The issue today is the flawed idea that a hasty redeployment helps the situation and will result in anything other then a huge disaster that will make the current situation seem like a walk in the park. We now have to face the reality that if anything positive is going to come out the five years we have spent in Iraq it is going to require many more years of U.S. military involvement in country.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi Pmh! I believe the Founding Fathers would be against such nation-building, for several reasons. Do you agree?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sam Original500© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pmh1nic wrote: Sam Many more years.... what happened to "Mission Accomplised", We've got them on the run", Last throes", statements of years past?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Goetzdude Pioneer100© Member  Gimmie dat !!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
smoke and mirrors Sam, smoke and mirrors....it's pretty obvious where most of dubya's smoke went with regard to pmhnic-nic,eh?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sam Original500© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Goetzdude wrote: smoke and mirrors Sam, smoke and mirrors....it's pretty obvious where most of dubya's smoke went with regard to pmhnic-nic,eh? Amazing isn't it. Even if they take out Sadr now in this latest uprising, there will be three more to replace him. These people have been fighting for thousands of years, and the only thing that will solve this is another Sadam. They do not want a Democracy type of government, and they resent our being there. Wouldn't you? Most intelligent politicians knew this was a mistake before it even happened. You would think after Viet Nam we would have learned a lesson as far as nation building goes. Unfortunatly we happened to have the dumbest President at the wrong time.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sam "Mission Accomplished" I'd suggest you read the speech President Bush gave when the infamous mission accomplish banner was behind him. In no way, shape or form could you interpret that the Mission Accomplished meant the end of fighting in Iraq or that it was going to require anything but a continued effort on many levels to establish secure and free society in Iraq. 24hournut If the Founders were living in the 21st century with the understanding of how vital the Middle East region is to our economy and security they might just be for nation building.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Goetzdude Pioneer100© Member Gimmie dat !!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"In no way, shape or form could you interpret that the Mission Accomplished meant the end of fighting in Iraq or that it was going to require anything but a continued effort" hey mang...pass dat blunt dis way.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pmh1nic wrote: Sam Actually, they DID give us an example of how they would have handled a Middle Eastern foreign policy/threat to US interests incident. It's called the Barbary pirates, a group of people just like Al-Queda, supported quietly behind the scenes by local governments (who also claimed to be 'helping against them' to whatever diplomats came and talked). Same exact situation today, same degree of threat even, to the US economy really - there was a reason we went there and dealt with that--- because the economists and US leaders of the day understood the importance of that to the US, even though it was on the far side of the world. The people of America did not back them in their efforts, with the SAME thinking of today "that ain't happening here in the US, why are you bothering, couldn't the money be better spent here, don't our soldiers need to be HERE protecting us instead of being so far away" Same issues-- same responses frmo the people. Just as much at stake for a fledgling nation too -- we may look at the Barbary pirates through a 200 year old lens of history, and decide that it was just a little skirmish sinking a few boats and making a few nice historical phrases for elementary schoolbooks, but the Barbary pirates were just as much a threat to the US then as AQ is today, in the same long-term means. Ask any unbiased historian familiar with the MidEast in those days about that- that little situation WAS just like today in terms of it's potential for destabilizing the area, giving other MidEast nations ideas about how they could treat America, etc However--- you'll note that solution used by the Founding Fathers did not in any way resemble the politics-ridden, cronyistic MESS that GWB has created. Rather, they said "go deal with it" to their military commanders and they DID NOT send in friends and companies close to the Administration to do the kind of "nation building" that GWB has gone in for. PMH has completely shot his foot off with THAT comment about the FFs -- they PROVED that they would not do what GWB has done in this case ---- allow it to get political, allow cronies and friends in on the deal, and hobble the military with political considerations behind every strike and mission (aka Vietnam) The FFs were a GREAT example of how to handle that-- go WHOMP the bad guys ONE TIME, hard enough for it to dissuade them (for a while), and DO NOT get involved in 'fixing' all the social isues and trying to make a democracy out of a group of folks that DON"T WANT to be a democracy. PMH, care to swap feet? Last edited on 04:38 am by sirlamre Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sirlamre "PMH has completely shot his foot off with THAT comment about the FFs..." Shot in the foot? Not even close. You need to be a little more precise in your discussion regarding what the "Founders" would do. What the Founders did was pay bribes Barbary in an attempt to end the piracy. It wasn't until 1815, after the War of 1812 ended, that the U.S. took serious troops to force the release of U.S. crews and ships that had been taken captive. In addition, there is NO comparison between how vital the Middle East is to our economy and security today versus the early 1800's. Neither is there any comparison between the potential destruction that can be caused via a chemical, biological or small nuclear weapon let loose in lower Manhattan and what the pirates were capable of doing with 17th century firearms and cannons. The only ones that are shooting themselves in the foot are those that are under the illusion that we can walk away from Iraq without suffering significant consequences.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
sirlamre "The FFs were a GREAT example of how to handle that-- go WHOMP the bad guys ONE TIME..." More revisionist history. That is NOT what they did.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > An interesting perspective on what GWB has NOT done in properly defining the Iraq mission to his com | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Site Supporters | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Posts Of The Day | Mock Forums | WowClassic | |
Themes and most mods done in collaboration with: WowClassic - powerful forum software with the best support service.
We are partners with Forum Owner Services
Powered by - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez
We are partners with Forum Owner Services
Powered by - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez