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Brian
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Posted: 07:29 pm |
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UsedToRide wrote: Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little freedom will deserve neither and lose both.
~Ben Franklin
Actually,
Ben Franklin wrote:
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety.
Notice the terms "essential" and "temporary". In this case, the safety isn't temporary. And I don't see the liberty involved as essential, either.
Since you literally leave your DNA wherever you go, in what sense is your DNA "private"? If the police can require your fingerprints, or can require you to blow into a tube, I don't grok what argument could be made to deny police the ability to take DNA.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."
-- "A Long December", Counting Crows
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Amy
Original500© Member
...going with the flow...
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Posted: 07:50 pm |
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Lady Cop wrote: Today, it's announced that all persons arrested by any law enforcement agencies, will have to submit to DNA testing.
i can understand the feelings of people about this, but it's really no more invasive than fingerprinting. we need a DNA database, mainly because of traveling serial killers and rapists. in many courts now people have cheek swab taken upon conviction along with another fingerprinting.
and we in florida anyway, have always taken DNA from convicted sex offenders.
A couple years ago there was a case in the news about a serial rapist who worked for a local utility company. They knew he was an employee because victims said he wore the company uniform and the other thing they know about him is that he is black.
Well, of course this caused quite a stir because the authorities wanted to do a DNA test on all individuals who fit this profile which would be 40 black male employees. This of course had people screaming profiling.
At the time I wondered...Why don't we have a global policy to do a DNA test on every new born, keep the results in a database and destroy the original sample. That way in about one century's time, you could effectively wipe out crime. If every human being had a dna sample on file, every crime committed involving dna evidence could be immediately solved. If people grew up knowing that they couldn't commit a crime and get away with it, people would think twice. I'm no scientist but it also seems that it would assist with solving missing persons cases and maybe even possible medical uses, finding matches with rare blood types etc.
I know this brings up all kinds of other issues...right to privacy, big brother type mentality, but this way there would be no profiling, it would include everyone. And I know it would probably take a century before the technology would be available globally.
Of course as with anything...it could possibly be abused...so would need to be carefully thought out...which I haven't done. But it seems to me the benefits might outweigh the risks. 
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aknow
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Posted: 11:01 pm |
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Saint wrote: Over the weekend 400 or more children get abducted by the police and feds in Texas, taken away from their families, even if the Feds don't/won't understand their families.
Abducted? Don't you mean "rescued?"
What's to understand? They were a community of brainwashed, cultist, child-molesters. I'm amazed they got away with it as long as they did, doing untold damage to those poor children.
Every single adult member of that heinous cult should do time.
Today, it's announced that all persons arrested by any law enforcement agencies, will have to submit to DNA testing.
I agree with LC. What's the big deal? I had to have my fingerprints taken when I became a teacher. DNA is just another form of I.D. Don't want to do it? Don't get arrested.
Is this America or Hitler's Germany??
Pfft. Inflammatory rhetoric.
Recall your president and Vice president before it's too late,
Why spend millions for that? He's out in October.
or at least strongly urge your Senators and Congress people that we still have a Constitution.
Dr. STeve
Steve, there are plenty of causes to zealously defend that are better than these.
Saint:
With regard to inflammatory rhetoric; what proof do you have that this community consists of brainwashed child molestors? Please share. And I agree there are plenty of causes to question or defend, but I'm one of those angry Americans that Senator Obama referred to. It seems to me that a military incursion into these throwbacks from the 19th century with an amazing show of force was a bit dramatic. The upcoming court case is going to seriously embarrass the state of Texas, and due to our politically correct to a fault nation, will probably involve an enormous financial settlement when it's over and done with. I see this as yet another example of the Bush Administration running its phoney morality down the throats of innocent people, while simultaneously paying off their cronies to screw the rest of us.
Just my politically naive opinion
dr. STeve
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THUMPER
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Posted: 03:35 pm |
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Lady Cop wrote: but in cases where bodily samples are unquestionable, it does help the innocent. it's relatively new, and i have hopes it will prevent wrongful convictions one day.
i have hopes for the DNA database so that guilt can be established beyond a reasonable doubt.
 I think its great that they are using DNA to clear innocent people who have been serving time for a while...
BUT
In about 5 min.,,,I could have a few different samples of most peoples DNA just by getting into their house,summer house or motel/hotel room...
with foresight and planning, that DNA could then be easily planted right after commiting a crime...(or before)
SOON, I foresee this working both for and against "innocent people"
I think in the future,having a ROCK SOLID ALIBI
and 24 hour accounability will prove quite valuble, especially if you mess with the wrong people...
law enforcement and the government aren't the only ones that are collecting DNA...
gonna get intresting for sure...
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Saint
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Posted: 04:13 pm |
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With regard to inflammatory rhetoric; what proof do you have that this community consists of brainwashed child molestors? Please share.
No problem. Proof: My own eyewitness testimony.
I live right next to the community that these people migrated from on the Arizona / New Mexico border. I've met some of them and we've all seen them come into town many times. (The community in which I live is the nearest shopping mecca to their old enclave.)
let me tell you, it is downright sickening to see a 50-year-old man with a 14-year-old in tow that is his "wife."
It's been going on in this part of the country for decades that I know of, possibly since shortly after the Morman expansion.
Most Mormans I know are normal people. I even agree with some of their church's policies such as having one year of emergency rations and supplies.
But this splinter group, which moved to Texas to escape the scrutiny of Utah and Arizona authorities (they had been so isolated that it was a dirty little secret known only to members of communities that lived near them for quite a while as I've said)had to break off from the normal mainstream of Mormanism and isolate itself just for this very practice of "marrying" underage children to older members.
Doesn't the fact that they had to "consummate" the "marriage" immediately on a bed behind the altar raise huge red flags for you?
This is nothing but child molestation shrouded by secrecy, isolation, and "religious" trappings.
It's a cult...and a bad one. Trust me on this one.
And I agree there are plenty of causes to question or defend, but I'm one of those angry Americans that Senator Obama referred to.
Myself as well. And I understand your concern for unwarranted (literally) intrusion into people's lives by the government. Heck...I even think that DWI roadblocks are an illegal intrusion into my life. How can I be stopped from pursuing my happiness on a "chance" I might be committing a crime?
But DNA, as Brian said, is left by people everywhere. Just like fingerprints. I have no problem with the police using a better, more sure method of identification of criminals.
It seems to me that a military incursion into these throwbacks from the 19th century with an amazing show of force was a bit dramatic.
The drama came from the way it was presented in the press. The rescue (note: I did not say incursion which implies something illegal) was WAY overdue. and throwbacks implies that they are a simple folk that do not understand that child molestation is a bad thing.
Make no mistake, they knew. That is why they isolated themselves for decades. They are just as aware of their behavior as the isolated meth cookers in the desert near here.
The upcoming court case is going to seriously embarrass the state of Texas, and due to our politically correct to a fault nation, will probably involve an enormous financial settlement when it's over and done with.
What will actually happen is that you, and others who seem to refuse to believe that such a heinous cult could operate for extended period inside our own borders will have your eyes opened and your beliefs challenged. You will be astounded at the depravity. Really. These people are sick.
Mind-control and personality cult at its horrifying worst.
I see this as yet another example of the Bush Administration running its phoney morality down the throats of innocent people, while simultaneously paying off their cronies to screw the rest of us.
While that statement is true in almost every other case, it's not true in this one.
These people deserve what they got in any administration.
Just my politically naive opinion
Not naive, as I've said, you are right to be suspicious of any move the government makes under Bush, just uninformed. You've never met these people because if you had...
you'd know the sad, terrible, disgusting truth.
A^2 + B^2 = C^2
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Robodoon
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Posted: 07:41 pm |
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aknow wrote: Over the weekend 400 or more children get abducted by the police and feds in Texas, taken away from their families, even if the Feds don't/won't understand their families.
Today, it's announced that all persons arrested by any law enforcement agencies, will have to submit to DNA testing.
Is this America or Hitler's Germany?? Recall your president and Vice president before it's too late, or at least strongly urge your Senators and Congress people that we still have a Constitution.
Dr. STeve
It is Nazi Germany USA
"...we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the US, ...conspiring with others around the world to build ...-- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." David Rockefeller
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Brian
Grand Poobah of Moderation
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Posted: 09:21 pm |
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Robodoon wrote: aknow wrote: Over the weekend 400 or more children get abducted by the police and feds in Texas, taken away from their families, even if the Feds don't/won't understand their families.
Today, it's announced that all persons arrested by any law enforcement agencies, will have to submit to DNA testing.
Is this America or Hitler's Germany?? Recall your president and Vice president before it's too late, or at least strongly urge your Senators and Congress people that we still have a Constitution.
Dr. STeve
It is Nazi Germany USA
Sorry, but I have a hard time letting this one go. Have you ever cracked open a history book and read about Nazi Germany? Do you have any idea of the enormity of the evil that was Nazi Germany? Even putting aside the Holocaust, Nazi Germany was about 100 times worse than anything we've come within 100 miles of here in the U.S. (under either party).
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."
-- "A Long December", Counting Crows
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aknow
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Posted: 09:55 pm |
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Saint wrote: With regard to inflammatory rhetoric; what proof do you have that this community consists of brainwashed child molestors? Please share.
No problem. Proof: My own eyewitness testimony.
I live right next to the community that these people migrated from on the Arizona / New Mexico border. I've met some of them and we've all seen them come into town many times. (The community in which I live is the nearest shopping mecca to their old enclave.)
let me tell you, it is downright sickening to see a 50-year-old man with a 14-year-old in tow that is his "wife."
It's been going on in this part of the country for decades that I know of, possibly since shortly after the Morman expansion.
Most Mormans I know are normal people. I even agree with some of their church's policies such as having one year of emergency rations and supplies.
But this splinter group, which moved to Texas to escape the scrutiny of Utah and Arizona authorities (they had been so isolated that it was a dirty little secret known only to members of communities that lived near them for quite a while as I've said)had to break off from the normal mainstream of Mormanism and isolate itself just for this very practice of "marrying" underage children to older members.
Doesn't the fact that they had to "consummate" the "marriage" immediately on a bed behind the altar raise huge red flags for you?
This is nothing but child molestation shrouded by secrecy, isolation, and "religious" trappings.
It's a cult...and a bad one. Trust me on this one.
And I agree there are plenty of causes to question or defend, but I'm one of those angry Americans that Senator Obama referred to.
Myself as well. And I understand your concern for unwarranted (literally) intrusion into people's lives by the government. Heck...I even think that DWI roadblocks are an illegal intrusion into my life. How can I be stopped from pursuing my happiness on a "chance" I might be committing a crime?
But DNA, as Brian said, is left by people everywhere. Just like fingerprints. I have no problem with the police using a better, more sure method of identification of criminals.
It seems to me that a military incursion into these throwbacks from the 19th century with an amazing show of force was a bit dramatic.
The drama came from the way it was presented in the press. The rescue (note: I did not say incursion which implies something illegal) was WAY overdue. and throwbacks implies that they are a simple folk that do not understand that child molestation is a bad thing.
Make no mistake, they knew. That is why they isolated themselves for decades. They are just as aware of their behavior as the isolated meth cookers in the desert near here.
The upcoming court case is going to seriously embarrass the state of Texas, and due to our politically correct to a fault nation, will probably involve an enormous financial settlement when it's over and done with.
What will actually happen is that you, and others who seem to refuse to believe that such a heinous cult could operate for extended period inside our own borders will have your eyes opened and your beliefs challenged. You will be astounded at the depravity. Really. These people are sick.
Mind-control and personality cult at its horrifying worst.
I see this as yet another example of the Bush Administration running its phoney morality down the throats of innocent people, while simultaneously paying off their cronies to screw the rest of us.
While that statement is true in almost every other case, it's not true in this one.
These people deserve what they got in any administration.
Just my politically naive opinion
Not naive, as I've said, you are right to be suspicious of any move the government makes under Bush, just uninformed. You've never met these people because if you had...
you'd know the sad, terrible, disgusting truth.
Saint:
Thank you very much for the very excellent post. I don't believe any adult is unaware that sex with a child under 18 is very very wrong. Unless of course the adult is seriously mentally disabled, and a child themself. In the world I am living in, acting as a physician, struggling to parent my children and set a worthy example, I typically can't believe the world I find myself in. A world that seems to be dominated by dishonesty, greed, avarice, ignorance and selfishness instead of selflessness.
I seriously think it's come time for me to turn off all sources of the news (the propaganda), until America can reverse the course it has followed.
Again, thanks for the post, it was very insightful.
dr. Steve
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aknow
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Posted: 10:02 pm |
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Saint:
One last point, I still have a serious problem with mass collection of DNA.
DNA can be planted, mistaken, and/or purposefully used to frame an innocent person.
Additionally, it's extremely expensive, and not entirely immune from error. And TV shows such as Law and Order, or CSI, have our society brainwashed to believe that it's always 100% accurate, and immune from error.
I just believe there is far too much intrusion into private lives by government.
I could agree with creating a DNA database for anyone convicted of a felony. However, there is far too much data being collected anyway.
It has been recently stated that the Internet is already running out of space to log it's data, so a new technology is in the works to make the internet really infinite.
Dr. Steve
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sirlamre
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Posted: 04:48 pm |
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Saint wrote: Over the weekend 400 or more children get abducted by the police and feds in Texas, taken away from their families, even if the Feds don't/won't understand their families.
Abducted? Don't you mean "rescued?"
What's to understand? They were a community of brainwashed, cultist, child-molesters. I'm amazed they got away with it as long as they did, doing untold damage to those poor children.
Every single adult member of that heinous cult should do time.
Aknow apparently SUPPORTS 13 year old pregnancies by 50 year old men.
Anyone preventing that in his book is "abducting" the poor innocent raped 13 year olds.
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sirlamre
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Posted: 04:53 pm |
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Saint wrote: "Make no mistake, they knew. That is why they isolated themselves for decades. They are just as aware of their behavior as the isolated meth cookers in the desert near here."
ABSOLUTELY!!!!
This is probably the MOST convincing evidence outside of empirical proofs and testimony.
They KNOW that they will be jailed for child molestation!
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aknow
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Posted: 11:04 pm |
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sirlamre wrote: Saint wrote: Over the weekend 400 or more children get abducted by the police and feds in Texas, taken away from their families, even if the Feds don't/won't understand their families.
Abducted? Don't you mean "rescued?"
What's to understand? They were a community of brainwashed, cultist, child-molesters. I'm amazed they got away with it as long as they did, doing untold damage to those poor children.
Every single adult member of that heinous cult should do time.
Aknow apparently SUPPORTS 13 year old pregnancies by 50 year old men.
Anyone preventing that in his book is "abducting" the poor innocent raped 13 year olds.
Sirlamre: AKnow supports small children residing with their mothers, until law enforcement can get it's act together. What's happening to those children right now, is child abuse. I don't support teenage pregnancies. Dr. Steve
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Lady Cop
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Posted: 06:50 pm |
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Rape victim pushes for expanded DNA database
- Story Highlights
- Maryland expands its DNA database this week
- Samples will be taken from people suspected of violent crimes
- Rape victim Laura Neuman went public, lobbied for change in law
- Other states, feds also changing law; some say law goes too far. WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Laura Neuman was raped when she was 18 years old. It took nearly 20 years to identify her attacker, even though he'd been arrested six times before her attack and at least six times afterward.
Alphonso Hill pleaded guilty in September 2002 to raping Neuman and was sent to prison for 15 years. A DNA sample, taken in prison, led to charges in six other rape cases.
Police say he's also a suspect in at least 20 rapes in the Baltimore, Maryland, area. Hill denies raping any women besides Neuman, and his lawyer wouldn't comment.
If Hill is eventually proven guilty, Neuman believes that he could have been stopped.
"He could have been caught sooner if DNA had been taken and he had been matched to the cases that were unsolved," she said.
"For me, it would have made a profound difference in having the case solved sooner and for many of these women, their cases would have been solved sooner."
So she went public with her story, lobbying fiercely in her home state, Maryland, for a law that would require police to take DNA samples from everyone arrested for a violent crime. She testified before the state Legislature.
On Tuesday, Maryland starts expanding its DNA database, collecting samples from people arrested for murder, rape, and assault instead of just collecting DNA from convicted criminals.
Maryland is joining a dozen other states in expanding its database, and walking straight into controversy. To supporters, building DNA databases with samples from the unconvicted is no different from collecting fingerprints. Critics say it's a complete violation of civil rights.
"This is information that leads to all sorts of basic data about who we are, our entire physical makeup," said Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union. "That is really different than a few fingerprints."
DNA and the statesThese states require DNA from people arrested for some felonies: Alaska, Arizona, California, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Mexico, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas and Virgina. Next year, California and North Dakota will require DNA from all felony suspects. Source: National Conference of State Legislatures
Fredrickson added that there are already too many examples of racial profiling and innocent people being rounded up in police dragnets. "Our privacy is a critical factor and we can't assume that everybody is guilty until they are proven themselves innocent," she said.
Like it or not, it's a trend that is gaining popularity.
At least 21 other states are considering proposals similar to Maryland's.
Changes are coming at the federal level as well. The government soon will begin collecting DNA samples from anyone arrested or detained by the feds, including illegal immigrants.
"I think there is a valid public policy for doing that because there are many people who have committed crimes but who have never been convicted but have been arrested and without their DNA in the system we are not solving those crimes," said Associate Attorney General Kevin O'Connor.
Most states with the new DNA arrestee laws require the police to automatically destroy the samples if suspects are found not guilty or the charges are dropped. But federal authorities require a formal request before they'll destroy a specific DNA sample.
Critics worry the data could be misused, a charge O'Connor disputes. "Congress has passed a provision that says anybody who abuses this information, or uses it for non-law enforcement purposes such as to look at someone's family history of diabetes or whatever the disease might be ... will be prosecuted," he said.
Justice Department officials estimate when the expansion is fully implemented -- as soon as December -- information from about 1.2 million people a year could be added to the national DNA database. It's another cause of consternation for critics--who say backlogs remain a major problem.
The FBI estimates that about a quarter of a million DNA samples have yet to be processed in its lab and says it did not receive any new funds to deal with the backlog, which is sure to grow even larger.
Many states are facing similar issues.
Critics worry that as workloads increase, catastrophic errors could be made. "We have seen examples of crime labs that have not been able to get to the DNA testing that has ultimately led to finding a criminal," the ACLU's Fredrickson said. "That is what we need to do, focus our resources on where they are actually going to make a difference." But proponents like Neuman say that criticism is shortsighted.
"Is it worth the risk to make sure that we get these cases solved and keep people behind bars who should be behind bars?" she said. "Those who are innocent have nothing to fear"
~~SEA HAG~~
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Robodoon
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Posted: 11:22 pm |
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aknow wrote: Over the weekend 400 or more children get abducted by the police and feds in Texas, taken away from their families, even if the Feds don't/won't understand their families.
Today, it's announced that all persons arrested by any law enforcement agencies, will have to submit to DNA testing.
Is this America or Hitler's Germany?? Recall your president and Vice president before it's too late, or at least strongly urge your Senators and Congress people that we still have a Constitution.
Dr. STeve
A what the hell is going on in America? Exactly.
Hell is going on in the USA! so thats why its here.
"...we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the US, ...conspiring with others around the world to build ...-- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." David Rockefeller
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Lady Cop
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