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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Is the Constitution a "living document" |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   |
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UsedToRide Original500© Member  ^^^That is LOVE!!^^^
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Yes, the Founders appealed to a higher law established by God that grants freedom to all men. Really? Then it must say in the Bible somewhere that all men are created equal except for those that you purchase to do your cotton pickin'. Please point that chapter and verse out to me, because for all the times I've read my Bible, I don't recall seeing that one. Some other word of God that I am not familiar with perhaps? Really, tell that to the police officer that stops you next time you run a red light. I don't run red lights. I'm a little crazy, but I'm not suicidal!!! Sheesh, I live in Detroit!   That is unfortunate. And 100% true. Last edited on 08:50 pm by UsedToRide  Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet http://www.freeholbrook.com The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. ~~Dostoyevsky |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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pmh1nic wrote: Polymath Actually, I think he means the DOI. I don't remember the precise number, but Jefferson's first draft was given over 80 changes in committee.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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"Really? Then it must say in the Bible somewhere that all men are created equal except for those that you purchase to do your cotton pickin'." Again, not all of the Founders approved of slavery. Neither did all of society. There was a strong abolishionist movement in the U.S. during the post-revolutionary period. The validity of a law doesn't require universal acceptance. In fact the DOI expresses the idea that there are certain principles and "inalienable" rights that transend the laws of men.
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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Brian We'll let Polymath clear that up but since he mentioned the issue of slavery I thought he was referring to the Constitution since slavery was a sticking point regarding the ratification of the Constitution.
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: "Really? Then it must say in the Bible somewhere that all men are created equal except for those that you purchase to do your cotton pickin'." The Church, The Bible, and the Christian masses were generally AOK with slavery and disciplining slaves at that time, just like they were for the entire 18 centuries slavery was condoned and engaged in.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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This is what a religious mob and a Bible filled with pro-slavery condoning gets you after 16 or so centuries: Slavery in American Colonial Law
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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24hournut It takes time to change cultural attitudes BUT the church was one of the main forces behind the abolishionist movement in Europe and the United States. Of course you like to focus on the bad done in the name of religion. As for the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's, I think the leader of the movement was the REVERENT Martin Luther King. Last edited on 09:44 pm by pmh1nic |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: 24hournut I simply stated facts. The Church deserves zero credit for ending slavery because it fueled way too much of it and is not responsible for ending it at all. It took the bell of freedom and enlightenment for that to start happening, both of which required the gradual leashing of organized religion. That is what made the Founding Fathers revolutionary in part. The Church was supposed to be above "cultural attitudes" instead of sleeping with tyrants and fueling slavery.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: As for the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's, I think the leader of the movement was the REVERENT Martin Luther King. It was the residue of organized religion and slavery condoning for 18 centuries that really helped fuel the continuous poor treatment of Black people in America.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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"I simply stated facts." No you don't, you state half-truths. "The Church deserves zero credit for ending slavery because it fueled way too much of it and is not responsible for ending it at all." The Church deserves a tremendous amount of credit for ending slavery and the civil rights movement in this country. "It took the bell of freedom and enlightenment for that to start happening, both of which required the gradual leashing of organized religion." The bell of freedom was rung by men of faith. The abolishion of slavery was fueled by men of faith. Those are the facts. "That is what made the Founding Fathers revolutionary in part." The Founders in starting the revolution based the justification for that revolution on the FACT the GOD gives men rights and freedom. That's another inconvenient FACT. "It was the residue of organized religion" Not only is you understanding of history during the revolutionary period lacking but your understanding of recent history is just as lacking. It was the church that fueled the civil rights movement in this country headed up by the Reverent Martin Luther King.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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No, it is a fact that the Church, The Bible, and the Christian masses were generally AOK with slavery and disciplining slaves at that time, just like they generally were for the entire 18 centuries slavery was condoned and engaged in. If it makes you feel better to give credit to the institution that prolonged, condoned, and fueled a lot of anti-freedom activity raging from mistreating religious minorities to outright slavery of minority skin color, go ahead. They helped slavery be prolonged and only participated when the world and others were coming around and doing something about that anyway. Your attempt to give them credit instead of holding them responsible for their evil is absurd. What timing and coincidence - they waited to crawl out of their hell hole and take a moral stand against slavery when it was already too late. They didn't take a stand until it was safe to do so - it took them 18 centuries and it was after the world was already ready and making moves away from slavery. That's called being political power whores. If you want applaud the fuelers of slavery for so many centuries because they didn't CONTINUE to stay on the sidelines like corrupt whores, that is your warped sensibility. Do you also applaud when a child molester stops raping a kid after 5 years, coincidentally after a cop moves next door and a neighborhood education awareness campaign on his block started? Do you also give credit to the Church for talking about the child molesters working for them, that they COVERED UP FOR AT THE EXPENSE OF KIDS AND FAMILIES, coincidentally, when the public pressure and legal action was pressed upon them? PLEASE.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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UsedToRide Original500© Member ^^^That is LOVE!!^^^
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24HourNut wrote: No, it is a fact that the Church, The Bible, and the Christian masses were generally AOK with slavery and disciplining slaves at that time, just like they generally were for the entire 18 centuries slavery was condoned and engaged in. If it makes you feel better to give credit to the institution that prolonged, condoned, and fueled a lot of anti-freedom activity raging from mistreating religious minorities to outright slavery of minority skin color, go ahead. They helped slavery be prolonged and only participated when the world and others were coming around and doing something about that anyway. Your attempt to give them credit instead of holding them responsible for their evil is absurd. What timing and coincidence - they waited to crawl out of their hell hole and take a moral stand against slavery when it was already too late. They didn't take a stand when it wasn't popular - it took them 18 centuries after the world was already ready. That's called being political power whores. Do you also applaud when a child molester stops raping a kid after 5 years, coincidentally after a cop living next door? Do you also give credit to the Church for talking about the child molesters working for them, coincidentally, when the public pressure and legal action was pressed upon them? PLEASE. Normally, I don't quote an entire post by a person; I take it piece by piece to dissect and provide my rebuttals or agreements a step at a time; an idea at a time. For Frank's, I didn't want any part of it brushed past. Now this thread is turning into a discussion about "The Church" (capitalized...???) and its part/role/ploy in this or that eventual thought (the beginnings of PC-dom?) by someone that slavery was wrong. Hmmm......here's my take..... Precisely what/which church are we talking about? The catholic church? The lutheran church? The seventh-day-adventist church? You'll note my lack of capitalizing any of the branches since I have less than zero respect for any of them, or any other religious organization you can name. IMO, organized religion is the supreme enabler for people to excuse or accept certain attitudes. Be it the sick-f**k priest who likes to have sex with 9 year-old boys, or the sick-f**k teacher at a parochial school who buys his "innocence" in a new wardrobe. (That is my tale, for another thread.) For any/all the people here attempting to defend "the church" and all its "holiness" and their sanctimonious attitude; wait till your child is the victim of one of these people and tell me then if you are so adamant in defending the sick bastard pricks who make up a church. G'head....when it's your kid, let's see you do it..... Last edited on 12:26 am by UsedToRide Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet http://www.freeholbrook.com The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. ~~Dostoyevsky |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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UTR, I was referring to the Christian establishment and power base (the Church) that Pmh wants to pretend didn't do a lot to prolong and condone slavery. As for the child molesting, which I have every reason to think is and was far more chronic than the public realizes, the Church leaders including the Pope are responsible for all the cover ups and relocating the KNEW about. In short, there is a history of not only condoning and fueling slavery, but covering up immoral acts of the worst kind. I think we got on this tangent because slavery is a big issue when talking about the Constitution and the living document aspect of it. Pmh likes to point out what the Christian mob understood or wanted as the only valid way to judge the use of language in the Founding documents ... as if we are supposed to pretend the Founders didn't purposefully write and do things against that mob and clergy grain due to the principles of freedom they adhered to. This is why he is constantly at odds with the actual authors and key Founders in our debates and doesn't want to deal with them as he tries to dismiss any evidence based upon their actual views and written assessments.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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UsedToRide Original500© Member ^^^That is LOVE!!^^^
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In short, there is a history of not only condoning and fueling slavery, but covering up immoral acts of the worst kind. Gee.....kinda like now, in the 21st century where the sick f**ks who have to have sex with young altar boys are covered up? Is that what you mean? 
Yes, well; as with any other religious zealot, they see and hear and interpret what they want to se/hear and interpret as it suits their argument or claim. It is the typical reaction of a "church" zealot. It really is that simple. See past the argument to the "real" intent of the view - which is to inflict their religious views on a person, and anyone who disagrees is damned forever to hell - and piss on the facts. Yet another who is inflicted with the "I have my opinion, don't confuse me with fact" syndrome. Sheesh.....talk about sheeple..... Last edited on 01:15 am by UsedToRide Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet http://www.freeholbrook.com The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. ~~Dostoyevsky |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Gee.....kinda like now, in the 21st century where the sick f**ks who have to have sex with young altar boys are covered up? Is that what you mean? Yep. Covered up on all levels, too. What a shock - the same thing the Founders warned about and part of what motivated them to put it on an uprecedented leash. I am referring to the inherent problem of putting their dogma and desire to dominate the world above what is fair, good for freedom, or even best for everyone. Just ask the slaves and oppressed masses they helped keep in place by sleeping with tyrants inbetween wars, torturing the non-believers, and burning the printing presses to suppress knowledge. The institutions care most about themselves, even if it means relocating child molestors to unsuspecting areas for more victims. Does it get worse than that? Not much. The Founders knew these organized religions want to get in bed with power because that is what they did for 18 centuries instead of doing things like taking a stand against tyranny and slavery. The notion of commending them for finally coming around and taking a stand against slavery is like commending a priest for finally stopping ruining the lives of young male victims after 50 years.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Is the Constitution a "living document" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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