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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Vigilante justice, or Justice served properly? |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member  Official Forum Heretic
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/01/roland.martin/index.html?iref=mpstoryview "Ever since the suburban Houston man saw two burglars crawling out his neighbor's window on November 14 and gunned them down, Horn has been in legal limbo... Horn did what any of us would do in that situation: He called 911 to report the crime, and was told officers were being dispatched. But he was so incensed with what was taking place he told the dispatcher he was going to kill the men. No amount of pleading could get him to stop. On the audiotape of the incident, we can hear Horn racking his gun, firing two shots and killing Torres and Ortiz... The law was on Horn's side, whether he knew that or not when he fired. But when does our core decency come in when we make such life-altering decisions in a snap? Don't you think making the choice to kill someone should be based on something more dire, such as if your life is in danger? Don't be so quick to jump up and down and say you would have done the same thing; really think about it and ask yourself if you would follow Joe Horn and kill two people for stealing from your neighbor. [Based on Horn's testimony and the police reports] At no point was Horn's life in danger. We also know that his neighbor was out of town and no one was at home.... " So here's an interesting question -- What makes this OK? Would it have been OK to kill them if it had been two neighborhood 12 year olds? Some people on here are obviously going to say "But they were illegals and had that coming" Trouble is, Horn did NOT know that they were illegals -- there may have been a reasonable possibility that they were--- but not certainty. And his life was not under threat -- the usual reasoning for killing someone yourself, instead of the police potentially shooting a suspect. According to the article, "the law supports what he did" - though I think that's Texas law, not Federal law. I know that in NC you'd definitely get charged for killing someone OUTSIDE a building, not even on your property. You =might= end up aquitted, but you'd definitely go to trial, not just grand jury. They would be told to bring charges (or a judge would do it on the bench) How would Horns' situation be different if it had been two neighborhood 14 year olds he'd killed instead? Last edited on 07-02-2008 05:42 pm by sirlamre |
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UsedToRide Original500© Member  Lovin' the Life
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Until the injustice system we have in place now is fixed (not something I believe we will see in my great great grandchildren's lifetimes) and works to enforce laws and seek actual truth and justice for those who break the laws, I find this action perfectly acceptable. It's known that even with a call to 911 there was no certainty that the cops would get there in time to catch the damn thieves. I don't consider the fact that they were illegals in this scenario at all. Full-fledged American citizen or some half-wit from Mexico; if you're going to take the chance of stealing from someone, you take the chance that you will be killed for your efforts. Serves the f**kers right. Is it known that he could tell they were grown men and not 14 year old neighborhood kids? Even if they had been 14 year old neighborhood kids, their parents didn't teach them much about respect, did they? I also don't care that the man's life wasn't in danger. What he was seeing was an illegal action and he knew his neighbors weren't home. What's he supposed to do? Try and get a good description of the stinking thieves and hope the cops can find them? Then what? Arrest them, put them in jail, and create two people highly likely to re-offend. *OUR* *SYSTEM* *DOES* *NOT* *WORK*. If things like this continue to happen, maybe the assholes considering B & E or other crimes will think twice. An armed society is a polite society.
 Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet A hundred criminals may be set free, but one innocent man should not go to prison, for that will make the entire system criminal ~Chief Justice T.L.Venkatraman |
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aknow Original500© Member
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If America had more dignified Americans like Mr. Horn, perps like Ortiz and Torres would think more than twice about breaking and entering. Hooray for him, and for the justice dept of Texas for not prosecuting an honest citizen.
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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It was prob ably a stretch. Apparently they were not armed and posed no threat. Did they attempt to leave with the property of the homeowner? I don't see an answer to that. I think Mr. Horn had every rigfht to defend the life of his neighbors, but was that at risk? If he'd been a cop would the shoot have been righteous? I don't know. Regards, Scott
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  Smiling Shinobi
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He killed them purely out of anger, nothing more. If I killed everyone that angered me there would be a lot of dead people over the years. Including some people here! If I decided to take lethal action for any injustice I saw there would be even more dead people. 
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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Perhaps what we need is to treat civilian shootings like police shootings. Establish a civilian review board consisting of lawmakers, police officers, a judge, crime victims and another gunowner and let them make a recommendation to the district attorney in a prompt and timely manner. They could take the license and the weapon in question into custody, review the case, make their recfommendation and the district attorney could make his decision in a couple weeks time. Then the shooter is indicted or exonnerated. Regards, Scott
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UsedToRide Original500© Member Lovin' the Life
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a prompt and timely manner. In your fantasy world, this could be acceptable. In the injustice system in place now, this term is not recognized.
Again, in your fantasy world. In the real world, the prosecution team's decision is to charge the person with the highest possible charge, then do everything in their power to get a conviction. And from what I've seen, lying and cheating is something they are willing to do, just get that conviction.
Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet A hundred criminals may be set free, but one innocent man should not go to prison, for that will make the entire system criminal ~Chief Justice T.L.Venkatraman |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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If the law says the board must sit in two weeks and produce a recommendation within that time, and enjoins the prosecutor to indict or exonnerate within two weeks more, That's what it says. No stays no delays. The justice system fucks up upon occasion, that is the nature of justice systems. Regards, Scott Regards, Scott
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UsedToRide Original500© Member Lovin' the Life
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Popeyesays wrote: The justice system fucks up upon occasion, that is the nature of justice systems. Trust me when I tell you that the injustice system fucks up a LOT more than "occasionally". In Michigan we have the 3 counties that I live around under scrutiny for prosecutor's lying, hiding evidence and they all, that is A-L-L don't give a rat's ass about the timeframes given to them. In a case I am personally involved in, the prosecution delayed action for SIX MONTHS. Until you have become closely involved in a case, don't assume to know what the system is like.
Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet A hundred criminals may be set free, but one innocent man should not go to prison, for that will make the entire system criminal ~Chief Justice T.L.Venkatraman |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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I've actually got a split opinion about this: I think the guys got what they had coming, but I don't think the shooter should've gotten off scott-free. The thieves posed no threat to Horn. He didn't have to kill them. Hell, he didn't even have to shoot them to stop them, necessarily. Not only were they not in Horn's home, but they weren't even in the neighbor's home anymore. He wasn't defending himself or his home. He was engaging in target practice. He shouldn't spend his life in jail, but he should spend enough time behind bars to remember not to go on rage killing sprees.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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UsedToRide wrote: Popeyesays wrote:The justice system fucks up upon occasion, that is the nature of justice systems. Actually, I have--my younger daughter's boy friend got invited to a conference with his ex-wife concerning working out his children's well-being. He was met by police who arrested him for an attempted assault and a violation of a protective order, and spent three months in county lock-up because his divorce attorney was a non-governmental fuck-up. So, yeah, been there--not as bad as your case perhaps but been there just the same. Regards, Scott
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UsedToRide Original500© Member Lovin' the Life
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Popeyesays wrote: So, yeah, been there--not as bad as your case perhaps but been there just the same. Not even close. Three months in county lock-up? That is a joke. I've spent a month in county lock-up myself and aside from boredom and really bland food, the worst thing I had happen to me was taking a crap with my cellmate in the same room. Was this guy guilty of assault? Why did he have a PPO and why did he violate it? Try dealing with prison guards, a judge who hates Bikers and guns, a prosecutor who hates the truth and being wrong and enjoys dragging his feet, and paying 17,000 bucks for the appeal. So far. And deal with all that for TWO YEARS. Your little "slap-a-ho" bitch doesn't have a clue, just as you don't have a clue. I've been watching your posts. You have knowledge in many areas from what I have seen. This one, I'm calling you on. He shouldn't spend his life in jail, but he should spend enough time behind bars to remember not to go on rage killing sprees. In order to not blow past Brian's points; I wouldn't have done what Horn did. I think he was right, but personally, I wouldn't have done it. The willingness to take a life needs to have more reason behind it than this situation did. But I have a lot more faith in vigilante justice than I do in the injustice system. I've seen vigilante justice at work personally. It is swift and uncompromising, and best of all, it's fair. What I saw was, anyway.
Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet A hundred criminals may be set free, but one innocent man should not go to prison, for that will make the entire system criminal ~Chief Justice T.L.Venkatraman |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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UsedToRide wrote: Popeyesays wrote:So, yeah, been there--not as bad as your case perhaps but been there just the same. That's okay. I'll even stipulate that you have a better knowledge of this than I. No, there was no assault at all. Yes, he knew about the order, but he thought she was being sincere when she invited him to come discuss what he wanted to discuss. Yes, he was stupid beyond all measure to take her word for something; but it's just because he is basically a well-meaning individual. He did get beaten pretty severely-enough to spend two weeks in the hospital ward to let the broken ribs heal. I'm not sure exactly what he did to get the beating, nor am I certain his darling ex-wife didn't have connections inside to get it done. My daughter was in agony over it-just 18 as a matter of fact. He's out now, but he's still having to deal with not seeing his kids, not even knowing where they are for that matter. He lost a good job with Dell over the lock-up. I have a lot of concerns over this relationship for my daughter's sake, but I have no doubt that he is basically a nice guy. I just wish he was younger and not so "used". She's an honor student at UCO in the music department studying violin and has played several gigs as a fill-in with some major civic orchestras here. Baha`i's have a certain leverage with romances that other parents don't have, and both she and her boyfriend are active and involved Baha`i's so her mother and I have active veto over whether they ever marry or not, though we don't have a right to interfere in a courtship up to the point of giving our consent or withholding it. Generally speaking, with all its warts it's a better legal seystem than most of the world has, and I have much more faith in it than if I were Iranian or Indian, or even British. Regards, Scott
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UsedToRide Original500© Member Lovin' the Life
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Let me just start off with the note that most Americans think we have the best system and compare ours to other countries. I don't have the experience with other systems to say whether or not that is true. I'm a realist. Till I see it for myself, I am skeptical.
Ah. I know that kind of bitch well. There are far too many of them. They all deserve an ass-kicking. From a woman.
No surprise there. Especially in county jail. One of the county guards when Bullet came down for a hearing beat a tiny 5'7" 105# man unconcious because he didn't move fast enough. The guard was 6'2" and about 245, according to Bullet. They don't care. They know they are generally beyond the reach of the law. I sincerely hope this situation doesn't come back to bite your daughter in the ass. I also have personal experience with violent men. Just remember; even for Baha'i, karma will have her vengeance. And we have gone way off topic. Apologies to Sirlamre!
Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet A hundred criminals may be set free, but one innocent man should not go to prison, for that will make the entire system criminal ~Chief Justice T.L.Venkatraman |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Heretic
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Thanks UTR.. I don't think we're way off topic, but let's do drift back to the essential question -- which was something like "when is vigilante justice a good thing" You said: 'but personally, I wouldn't have done it. The willingness to take a life needs to have more reason behind it than this situation did. But I have a lot more faith in vigilante justice than I do in the injustice system. I've seen vigilante justice at work personally. It is swift and uncompromising, and best of all, it's fair. " I agree. I don't think he was right- -- Like Brian, I think he deserves time --- because he acted out of anger, not "justice" Had he been protecting his neighbor, protecting himself, that'd be different. but I think it IS true that there was no evidence they'd even successfully stolen anything! And most of all, they WERE outside the house, which in most states is trouble even if it's YOUR property -- it really changes the picture of "imminent danger" in the eyes of most American juries, unless the people outside were firing into the house or something. I don't care for vigilante justice -- I live in a part of the world where that went on not much more than 50 years ago (maybe 60 or 70 now) ... The area is STILL rife with stories about how this or that person's grandfather was murdered by hanging from a tree by people who THOUGHT he'd done something wrong. Oddly enough, there's a county just to the west of us where your skin color played a great part in whether you were likely guilty of something. Americans have proven for more than 200 years that our sense of "vigilante justice" is _VERY_ warped in most cases, and INCLUDES bias against this or that stereotype by some other group. You may see Bikers as fair -- I may see local farmers as fair. Others in the South do in fact see white men in white sheets as "fair". Others may have empirical evidence that NEITHER group has been fair with justice dealt towards some other cultural group. If you didn't grow up in the Deep South in the 60s , you missed much of what DOES go wrong in America -- and I don't think that the thin veneer of civilization covering us would take much scraping of vilgilante justice to get back to lynching people because of who they are, not what they did. Look to the history of the 40-50 years following the Civil War in much of the South and the lower Central US to find out just how fair vigilante justice was. Indians, blacks, recent LEGAL immigrants from Europe, anyone not "like us" was a target for vigilante justice throughout most of the US, except the far Northeastern states and the far West (and even there, Chinamen were targets) I will WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you about our justice system being SLOW and biased towards and against various groups --- But I can tell you that if my neighbors were in charge of "justice" around here, my wife (black, from Trinidad) and I (white, from NC, but not a "good old boy") would not be living here. It would simply be FAR too dangerous here to be a mixed couple, non-Baptist Christian, not being part of the "good old country boy" network. As it is, I'm not fully accepted except by the more educated whites - but that beats fearing getting "chosen" to be the perpetrator of some crime for which no one saw who did it. Vigilante justice in the South has thousands and thousands of such cases where something was stolen, broken, someone was hit, whatever ---- and someone not even associated was blamed and either beaten, or worse, hung from a tree for it. No -- in spite of how badly bent the justice system is -- I'll take that over a murdering crowd of back country farm boys in the middle of the night beating down my door any time. And that type of vigilante justice isn't far below the surface here--- The white boys don't see anything wrong with it --- but ask anyone who is "different" in any cultural or racial way, and see how we feel about it.
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Vigilante justice, or Justice served properly? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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