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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  Happy Heretic
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Iran is not Iraq. Attacking Iran would be a very, very, very, very bad idea.
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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cynicalninja wrote: Iran is not Iraq. I mean what would make the new Russian Federation happier and more joyous than to send divisions to the assistance of the poor, victimized government of Iran in the sure and certain hope that they could coopt Persia as they have tried to do since the days of Ivan the Terrible. Of course the Iranians would happily turn on their 'rescuers' and fight them just as cheerfully as they would fight the Americans. Poof! a twenty-first century Hundred Years War delivered to your door, "Hot and Ready!" Regards, Scott
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
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General Sherman was the last general to understand that to win a war, you must defeat the will of the people to fight. That does not mean bombing nuke sites. It means all-out war against civilian populations. A "scorched earth" policy of destroying everything, houses, railroads, buildings, infrastructure, bridges, crops...everything. Genocidal War. It's the tactic we used to win WWII (the last war we won when we used nuclear weapons) and the tactic that forced the South to surrender in the Civil War. No country that I know of these days, including us, is ready to do that, with the possible exception of the Jajaweed Militia.
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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The reality is Iran is determined to develop a nuclear weapon. Israel is going to do what it can to prevent that from happening even if it means bombing Iranian nuclear sites. The Iranian response to that bombing may be to mobilize their military and attack Israel and U.S. interest and/or launch waves of terrorist attacks against Israel and the west. They have already said they have sleeper cells throughout the west waiting for the order to attack. The idea that the lessor of two evils is to allow Iran to go nuclear in an effort to avoid the above conflict is to ignor that their ultimate aim is to wipe Israel off the map. If you think we can stand on the sidelines while all this is happening and not suffer serious consequences you are sorely mistaken. We will be a part of this conflict like it or not. Our choice is whether we allow Iran to go forward in achieving their goal with or without them having nuclear capability. In my opinion the more damage and devastation we can inflict on them the more it will weaken their capability and resolve to see their vision of a Middle East void of western influence, real freedom and democracy. It's not a matter of participating or not participating in this conflict but participating to our best advantage.
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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pmh1nic wrote: The reality is Iran is determined to develop a nuclear weapon. Israel is going to do what it can to prevent that from happening even if it means bombing Iranian nuclear sites. We refrained from attacking North Korea when it proved it had both the missile to launch and the device to arm it with. Why a different approach to Iran? Iran has always been more reasonable than North Korea. Regards, Scott
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
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OK...Who here thinks the people of Iran are so suicidal that they think that they could nuke Israel and get away unscathed? Any use of nuclear weapons on Israel would sign the death warrant of the country launching them. Israel is known to have over 200 nukes and if you think they don't have even nastier stuff like neutron bombs and bacilli-bombs, you're crazy...just like the Israelis. Besides, the Israelis have proven time and again that they can take care of themselves.If anyone would attack them, I'd feel sorry for the aggressor.
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member Happy Heretic
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Why should Israel or America or anybody else decide whether Iran should have nuclear weapons or not?
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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North Korea and Iran are two different animals. The people of Iran are NOT controlling the situation. The folks in control are not suicidal but really believe that starting a nuclear conflict will somehow result in the ushering in of a grand Islam state that encompasses the whole Middle East including the land currently occupied by Israel. The believe they can suffer great loss if it means getting rid of Israel N. Korea really does fear China while the fanatical Muslims controlling Iran don't have a simar fear, not with respect to the U.S.or Russia. In fact the Russians have been one of their main supporters with respect to providing them with nuclear technology. As far as why the U.S. should have a say in whether Iran gains nuclear weapons technology, we should have a say because they will use that technology to further destablize the region and therefore our interest, as well as provide another open door for that technology to be use in terrorist attacks against us.
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
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cynicalninja wrote: Why should Israel or America or anybody else decide whether Iran should have nuclear weapons or not? You don't let a retarded child have a loaded .357 magnum. Same situation here.
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UsedToRide Original500© Member  ^^^That is LOVE!!^^^
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pmh1nic wrote: As far as why the U.S. should have a say in whether Iran gains nuclear weapons technology, we should have a say because they will use that technology to further destablize the region and therefore our interest, as well as provide another open door for that technology to be use in terrorist attacks against us. Here's a question then, PMH. If America should have a say in whether Iran should or should not have nuclear weapons, who else should we allow or not allow to have them? Anyone who sees things as we do and only them? Anyone who isn't a threat to us or our country? I don't understand people who believe America needs to be the world police.
Respect some, trust one, fear none ~~Bullet http://www.freeholbrook.com The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. ~~Dostoyevsky |
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
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I don't understand people who believe America needs to be the world police. Like every soldier who served for the US in WWII? Or Korea? Or Vietnam? Let's face it, we're the big boys on the block and we learned a long time ago from Hitler that it's better to stomp on the lit match (people who support terrorism and call for the destruction of other countries or invade them) than to wait for the forest fire.
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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Saint wrote: I don't understand people who believe America needs to be the world police. We did not stomp on a lit match in World War Two. Japan bombed sovereign American territory without warning on the morning of 7 December, 1941. The following day the United States declared war on Japan, but made NO DECLARATION of war against Germany. German Declaration of War with the United States : December 11, 1941 December 11, 1941 (Including the circumstances of the delivery of the note as released to the press by the Department of State, December 11, 1941.) The German Charge d'Affaires, Dr. Hans Thomsen, and the First Secretary of the German Embassy, Mr. von Strempel, called at the State Department at 8:00 A.M. on December 11, 1941. The Secretary, otherwise engaged, directed that they be received by the Chief of the European Division of the State Department, Mr. Ray Atherton. Mr. Atherton received the German representatives at 9:30 A.M. The German representatives handed to Mr. Atherton a copy of a note that is being delivered this morning, December 11, to the American Charge d'Affaires in Berlin. Dr. Thomsen said that Germany considers herself in a state of war with the United States. He asked that the appropriate measures be taken for the departure of himself, the members of the German Embassy, and his staff in this country. He reminded Mr. Atherton that the German Government had previously expressed its willingness to grant the same treatment to American press correspondents in Germany as that accorded the American official staff on a reciprocal basis and added that he assumed that the departure of other American citizens from Germany would be permitted on the same basis of German citizens desiring to leave this country. He referred to the exchange of civilians that had been arranged at the time Great Britain and Germany broke off diplomatic relations. The German Charge d'Affaires then stated that the Swiss Government would take over German interests in this country and that Dr. Bruggmann had already received appropriate instructions from his Government. He then handed Mr. Atherton a note from the German Government. Mr. Atherton stated that in accepting this note from the German Charge d'Affaires he was merely formalizing the realization that the Government and people of this country had faced since the outbreak of the war in 1939 of the threat and purposes of the German Government and the Nazi regime toward this hemisphere and our free American civilization. Mr. Atherton then said that this Government would arrange for the delivery of Dr. Thomsen's passports and that he assumed that we would very shortly be in communication with the Swiss Minister. He added that Dr. Thomsen must realize, however, that the physical difficulties of the situation would demand a certain amount of time in working out this reciprocal arrangement for the departure of the missions of the two countries. The German representatives then took their leave. The text of the note which the German representatives handed to Mr. Ray Atherton, Chief of the European Division of the State Department, at 9:30 A.M., December 11, the original of which had been delivered the morning of December 11 to the American Charge d'Affaires in Berlin, follows: MR. CHARGE D'AFFAIRES: The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression. On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German sub-marines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines. Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships. The German Government therefore establishes the following facts: Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war. The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America. Accept, Mr. Charge d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration. December 11, 1941. RIBBENTROP. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/gerdec41.htm Regards, Scott
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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UTR Ideally there would be no new members to the nuclear club. Having said that the least desirable member to the nuclear club would be a country that has sworn to wipe another sovereign democratic country off the face of the earth AND has been the major supporter of terrorism against Americans, participating directly and indirectly in the killing of thousands of innocent civilians (not counting members of our military) and a country run by a raving religious fanatic. We can discuss from there who else should be on the most undesirable list. If the U.S. doesn't look out for its own self-interest (security and stability in the Middle East is in our self-interest) who do you guess is going to do that, the U.N.?
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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PMH -- You are probably right about us having to be involved whether we want to be or not. But just because we are going to be involved DOES NOT automagically create trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of well-rested well=trained soldiers or billions of dollars of high technology equipment from radars to missles to radiocommunications equipment, just sitting waiting for us to be able to invade Iran and do what WILL be needed. Right now, the US economay CANNOT sustain another $400 BILLION spent fighting a ground war in a THIRD front. Whether we have to do that or not makes not one whit of difference to that simple math. We are NOT in the situation we were in the 1940s where wars BOOSTED the economy as before. Now, to "hold a war" means that the US SPENDS a ton of money, mostly OUTSIDE the US for much of the basics of the technologies (About 75% of the basic materials used in US manufacturing of weapons, communications, infantry gear, etc- is PURCHASED from overseas, not MadeintheUSA *) The fact that's it's not made in the USA is sad, and should be fixed, but makes NO difference to the cost of the war in the next 6-18 months. Nothing will change in that short a time except that invading Iran will COST the US citizens about $300 billion. Whether we "have to" or not, we CANNOT afford that. Period. Which means that -- we're either forced to spend the money, deal with Iran, and have the economy collapse LATER because of the bill coming due. Or we can find another way to deal with Iran and NOT have our economy collapse. Things are a LOT more delicate with the economy in terms of "edge of a cliff" type of thing than the politicians are willing to say- -- even the conservative "everything's fine" economists have been issuing warnings for months now ever sine the housing market =really= went tits up... That's going to ripple through the CITIZEN"s pocketbooks for a good few years to come. And Wall Street isnt' the economy. We the CITIZENS are. Last edited on 08:44 pm by sirlamre Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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IMHO, here is one of the major differences about a ground war with Iran vs what it was with Iraq. Iraq's citizens were a cowed subdued scared group of people, fully under the heel of a dictator's whims and in an environment where most feared for their lives from a random whim of a IRG soldier. Iran's people are NOT that way--- the majority support the clerical regime up to a point, because it's their national faith, NOT a dictatorship where the head guy vaguely pretended to be Muslim when it was convienient. In Iran, it IS going be the US attacking their nation and their faith, not attacking a dictator who they know isn't really "one of them" in the religious sense. That's a HUGE difference in terms of how much the people are going to support their national leadership. On that level, the aftermath of insurrectionists and jihadists is going to make Iraq look like a picnic compared to what Iran will be like with very nearly 100% of the population ACTIVELY and individually involved in things. Unless we manage to separate the people of Iran from their clerics so far as support is concerned, we're going to have a _very very_ serious problem on our hands.
Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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