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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Obama will win by a small landslide |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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Erinna1112 wrote:
Erinna: It is a two-party system. Here's proof: What did you think of Ralph Nader's performance in the debates? How do you think he'll do on Tuesday? The mere fact that someone is on the ballot doesn't mean they have a snowflake's chance in Hell of getting elected. If a third-party candidate was at all viable, Ron Paul would've run as a Libertarian, rather than running as a Republican. I'm not here to tell anyone who to vote for. But you have to come to terms with the consequences of your vote. How many of those people who voted for Nader in 2000 would've been just as unhappy with 4 years (let alone 8) of Gore?
 "It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Erinna1112 Original500© Member  Witty clever title pending
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So...he's a Christian with a Christian pastor...yet in the post above where I orignially asked this question you said he was a Muslim. Um.... {headskritch} Both? At the same time? How do you bend that logic both ways, fox? How can he be both?  Last edited on 01:58 am by Erinna1112 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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aknow wrote: Brian wrote:Aethelred wrote:And McCain couldn't survive his first real stressful moment as President. Is that your excursion into stand-up comedy? You do understand how fallacious your reasoning is here, right? A person's medical history goes back many years. All a lengthy medical history says about a person is that they've had medical issues. It's not in itself evidence that they have any medical issues. I myself have a lengthy medical history, because I've had numerous shunt revisions, and other surgeries related to spina bifida. That lengthy medical history doesn't mean I'm in bad health now, let alone that I'm in danger of dropping dead anytime soon. Content is what counts in a medical history, not length.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Erinna1112 Original500© Member Witty clever title pending
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Brian, the fact that candidates from parties other than the Republicans and Democrats are excluded from debates has long struck me as monumentally unfair, and media pandering to the lowest common denominator. It's yet another factor in the equation that means that other choices don't get a serious toehold, and IMO, it shortchanges both the people and the process. I'm aware of what the reality is. It doesn't mean I don't protest it at every opportunity.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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Erinna1112 wrote: Brian, the fact that candidates from parties other than the Republicans and Democrats are excluded from debates has long struck me as monumentally unfair, and media pandering to the lowest common denominator. It's yet another factor in the equation that means that other choices don't get a serious toehold, and IMO, it shortchanges both the people and the process. Understood, and that's appropriate, IMO. I have nothing against protesting that situation. I think it should be protested, in fact. The problem comes in when people cast "protest votes". The only advantage of casting a protest vote is that it makes your guy look more viable for next time around (which is why Nader is running again this year). But at best, in the meantime, you have to live with the consequences of your vote not going to the best viable candidate. Voting third party is only going to make sense when the barriers to parties are removed. The whole concept of "third party" is fundamentally flawed. There shouldn't be a limit on how many parties are in an election. The only reason such limits exist is so that the Big 2 parties aren't inconvenienced with competition, and so that the networks don't have to preempt American Idol or The Amazing Race.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Erinna1112 Original500© Member Witty clever title pending
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Brian, I agree with you to the point that I gave your post one of my POTD votes for today. The more protest votes are cast, the more viable a candidate looks - this was precisely my point. People don't vote for a candidate because they think he has no chance of winning, when he might just have a chance if they voted for him. The media, as you said, play into this as much as they can; it's to their distinct advantage to have only two candidates. It plays much better in the media if there's an "us vs. them" mentality. When I cast protest votes - and I have done so, on more than one occasion - it is with the full knowledge and acceptance of the potential consequences. I have, at times, voted for a candidate who had no real chance of winning election simply because I could not stomach either (or any, in some cases) of the candidates who did. I will vote my conscience, and be willing to bide the issue. It's not like we directly elect the President in this country anyway, and the election should be about voting for the person that each voter thinks is the best for the job, not the "lesser of two evils".
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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24HourNut wrote: pmh1nic wrote:No doubt both will have strings. But those pulling McCain's are fairly well know quantities. I'm very unclear as to who exactly will be pulling Obama's strings and I'm more concerned about where they may be trying to take us. Was that suppose to be a constructive or instructive comment? You've got TWO choice next month. If you want to cop out and write in some third party candidate be my guess. But understand that when you do that you open the door to the worst of two evils.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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Erinna1112 wrote: Brian, I agree with you to the point that I gave your post one of my POTD votes for today. Hi, Erinna. I think that the viability a third party candidate has from protest votes is mostly illusory. Protest votes are a very small percentage of votes, almost by definition. In order to have a real chance, a candidate has to have more than a "to hell with this -- I won't vote for either party" vote, because most people won't vote for someone they don't know, and therefore won't vote third party, because only the Big 2 get any kind of exposure. It should be about the person we each think will do the best job. Unfortunately, that person is all to often not on the menu -- either because they can't get on the ballot or because they can't get a decent airing of their views. I don't have any problem with people voting their consciences. In fact, that's admirable. But they should do so the way you seem to do it: with full knowledge that the short term consequences will likely be opposite of what they intend them to be. To give you an example: I have no problem with people who voted for Nader in 2000 or 2004, as long as they don't try to convince me that they didn't vote against their interests by giving Bush the edge. No one who voted for Nader on the issues Nader was running on can seriously say they are indifferent to the Bush victories.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Anyone who votes third party as a "protest vote" has absolutely NO ROOM WHATSOEVER to complain about ANYTHING done by the winner from the two candidates that have any chance of winning! If you toss your opportunity to pick the best candidate no matter what, in a "protest vote" then you CANNOT logically stand up and bitch about the guy who won. Picking a third party candidate basically means (to me) that the guy is going to get NOTHING fixed AT ALL. Both Parties will, IMHO, just absolutely STONEWALL a third Party President, because they KNOW that they have to convince America that it was a MISTAKE to move away from their Party. It's true that in the NEXT election both Parties will scramble to become whatever their backroom boys decide was why people voted third... Vote third party if you want 4 years of absolutely NOTHING done in the government, no fixes to the economy, no closing of the borders, no NOTHING being done. Last edited on 03:55 am by sirlamre Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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Erinna1112 wrote: So...he's a Christian with a Christian pastor...yet in the post above where I orignially asked this question you said he was a Muslim. Um.... {headskritch} Both? At the same time? How do you bend that logic both ways, fox? How can he be both?Erinna, I don't think he is both! I think he's Muslim and have pretty much always thought that. Just because he goes to a Christian church ( though it's not one like I've ever been to) doesn't make him Christian. The apparent black attitude of the church tells me he believes in that as well, and only differed when it became obvious what the church was really about. In my heart, I don't feel Obama has ever truly been honest about his faith.
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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I have a different take on the question of whether or not Obama is a Christian. I think Obama is a Christian, but only in the same way that most politicians are Christian: It's important to the majority of Americans that you proclaim some sort of Christian faith, and that you belong to some kind of church. (I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying, it is.) I think that he belonged to that particular church for so long not because he hates America, but because as a community organizer, he drew strength from people who were down-trodden and generally pissed-off. People who feel that "the system" is functional and not stacked against them have no use for a community organizer.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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foxglovepress wrote: Erinna1112 wrote:So...he's a Christian with a Christian pastor...yet in the post above where I orignially asked this question you said he was a Muslim. Um.... {headskritch} Both? At the same time? How do you bend that logic both ways, fox? How can he be both?Erinna, I don't think he is both! I think he's Muslim and have pretty much always thought that. Just because he goes to a Christian church ( though it's not one like I've ever been to) doesn't make him Christian. The apparent black attitude of the church tells me he believes in that as well, and only differed when it became obvious what the church was really about. In my heart, I don't feel Obama has ever truly been honest about his faith. Fox, he is NOT a Muslim. If he is, he's the worst Muslim in the whole world, bar NONE. He may not be a very good Christian eitherr -- But being a Muslim requires doing many things that Obama has NEVER been even remotely seen to do or believe. No practicing Muslim of ANY kind would EVER attend a Christian church for TWENTY YEARS. No practicing Muslim would EVER allow their children to be baptised Christian, not would they themselves be baptised. Obama himself is baptised, and many people have confirmed this, including McCain supporters. Obama has never ONCE been seen to face Mecca and say ANYTHING - even the least sincere Muslims will say prayers towards Mecca at least a FEW times, and they are NOT reticentnt about public prayer whatsoever-- Obama has been SEEN eating pork -- which no Muslin would EVER do. Muslims are the LAST religion on earth whose members would put aisde ANY of their beliefs for political reasons. If Obama were REALLY a Muslim, he would not have done ANY of the Christian things he's done, he would not have taken communion, he would not have eaten BBQ or anything else he's been seen to do. Christian politicians might set aside all manner of Christian things that voters might see as reasons not to vote for them (though Palin apparently doesn't might being protected from "witchcraft") but Muslims WILL NOT set aside their beliefs for ANY reason. Heck, they will strap BOMBS onto themselves as a matter of faith! (not that they're right about that, but it does show some SERIOUS depth of (misguided) faith! That's how serious they are about their religion --- FAR more serious than many who would call themselves Christians. Again, wrong thing to do- but still a powerful statement of faith that you would choose to DIE for your faith While here in Asheville, he stopped at 12bones, one of our very BEST smoked pig places-- (winner of several national awards) Trust me --- the man is NOT a Muslim!!!! I've SEEN him with pig in his mouth!!! 
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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The other thing I wanted to say is this: I think too much is being made of Obama being called "Barack Hussein Obama", as if using his middle name is a slur or an insult. It's the man's NAME, for chrissake! Is it an unfortunate middle name to have at this time in history? Uh...yeah. But does that mean that using his name is automatically racist? I don't think so. He's got a Muslim father in his background. (He claims that his father was "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, which I do find weird, considering his middle name.) The fact of the matter is, Obama has a Muslim middle name. He's multicultural. To some people, that's a good thing, and to some people, it's bad. Personally, I think it's neither. But if using his middle name when referring to him bothered him that much, don't you think he would've legally changed or dropped his middle name by now? The fact that he doesn't tells me he doesn't consider it to be that big a deal. And by taking offense, his surrogates are actually feeding racism. The proper response (and it amazes me that Obama hasn't responded this way) is to say: "My fellow Americans, It has recently come to my attention that some people think I'm a Muslim. I was astonished to learn this, since I had just this summer spent so much time talking about my pastor. But at any rate, let me address the issue squarely: I am not a Muslim. I've never been a Muslim, but Islam is a proud and noble religion, and it saddens me that there are those among us who would condemn an entire religion because of the actions of a faction of misguided fanatics. I would ask that the American people judge me, and all people, on the basis of our personal beliefs and behavior, rather than on the basis of some misguided notion based on the actions of the worst representatives of any particular religious tradition. Let us not cast stones at each other based upon our religious differences. Instead, let us heed the words of the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., and judge people on the content of their character. I swear to GOD, that is the last question I will take on my religion, damn it!"
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Erinna1112 Original500© Member Witty clever title pending
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Anyone who doesn't vote doesn't get to complain. Anyone who votes - for whatever reason, for whatever person, for whatever party - has preserved their right to bitch about the process and the results. I haven't missed a vote for any office, from dog-catcher on up, since I was eligible to participate in the process. If I vote Libertarian or Constitution or Green - I haven't decided among these or if it's going to be something else entirely yet - I get to complain. Deal with it. Brian - I did not vote for Nader as in your example (and I know, it was only an example), but I take your point, and it's a good one. You're right that people shouldn't vote without knowledge of the consequences of their actions.
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Erinna1112 Original500© Member Witty clever title pending
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Fox, what evidence do you have that convinces you Obama is a Muslim?
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Obama will win by a small landslide | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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