|
||||||
 |
Recent Posts | Search by username | |
Contact Us | |
Login | |
Register |
 |
 |
|||||
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > The dangers of hyperbole and exaggeration in political discourse |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page: 1 2 3   |
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Author | Post | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
shirohniichan Original500© Member  Obscurius per obscurum
|
  |
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I heard a commercial on Monday that blew me away. Samuel Jackson read a script comparing the plight of gay marriage advocates to Japanese Americans who were imprisoned in WWII. He said the JA's faced discrimination then, and now homosexuals are facing discrimination. How is being imprisoned for your ethnic origin anything like not being able to marry someone of the same sex? Is having your Constitutional right to habeus corpus and due process of law taken away in any way similar to restrictions on marriage? The biggest problem I see with this is that when we equate dramatic historical travesties to smaller current problems is that we trivialize the former. Those who don't know about the Internment will think it wasn't all that big of a deal. If they faced the same discrimination then as gays do now, that means they were able to live and work wherever they wanted, could associate with whomever they wished, etc. That was not the case. They were forced to leave the West Coast of the US within a short period of time to either show up in "relocation centers" (prison camps) or prove they found residence in the interior areas. This gave rise to anti-Japanese American sentiment in states outside of the West Coast exclusion area, so much so that JA's were threatened with violence if they attempted to move there. When we equate politicians with whom we disagree as "Nazis", compare the prohibition on gay marriage or polygamy to imprisonment, or grossly exaggerate issues, we debase the seriousness of past injustices. No, the drive for school vouchers is not the same thing as the Spanish Inquisition, nor is welfare reform the same as the Holocaust. There are degrees of moral outrage, and blurring or obliterating the dividing lines does nothing to help rational political debate in this country. We will become a nation so tired of hearing cries of "wolf" that we won't pay attention when a real wolf lays waste to the flock.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Great point. The sheer hysteria and fear that I heard from normally intelligent and stable people during this last election was staggering. Rational thought must prevail.
 A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shirohniichan wrote: How is being imprisoned for your ethnic origin anything like not being able to marry someone of the same sex? In many senses ... Both disrespect you, both treat you as second class citizens, both demonstrate a discrimination they feel is unfair, both deny you the same basic privilege as other citizens you feel should be deemed your equal in the eyes of your Government, both use your tax dollars to discriminate against you, both can be traced back to ignorance and/or archaic viewpoints, and both are things that will be looked back upon as wrongs. Just my guess.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
shirohniichan Original500© Member Obscurius per obscurum
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourNut wrote: shirohniichan wrote:How is being imprisoned for your ethnic origin anything like not being able to marry someone of the same sex? Wow-- so if you're placed in jail without charge for 3 1/2 years for being Italian American, it's the same to you as not being able to marry another man, your sister, a few women, etc? Marriage is also denied between immediate family members, multiple people, etc. There is no unrestricted right to marry anyone in this country whether one is straight, gay, or bisexual. Having conditions placed on eligibility for marriage is not the same as being imprisoned and officially labeled an enemy. It's not even close.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wow-- so if you're placed in jail without charge for 3 1/2 years for being Italian American, it's the same to you as not being able to marry another man, your sister, a few women, etc? Hi Shiro - no, it's not the same. I'm not sure where you got me saying it's the "same." You asked how something was "anything like" and I responded how they were "anything like." Normally when people exaggerate what I say like you just did it's a red flag to me that they are either biased or wrong about something. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just forgot what you had asked for, and that I was just offering similarities verses an assertion that they are the "same."
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shirohniichan wrote:
for biological reasons, not social ones.
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Marriage is also denied between immediate family members, multiple people, etc. That doesn't negate what I said. People should not be denied the same basic package of benefits and conveniences because their partner doesn't have a penis or a vagina. Save that bs for Middle East ignorance. We are supposed to be past the archaic nonsense of gender-based sexuality rendering citizens as second class in some way. You can come up with another word besides "marriage," or make up new words that are just for religious marriages of certain types. Or come up with different words for different arrangements, I don't care. As long as same sex couples get the same tax-funded benefits and other conveniences. It's partly their tax dollars funding the conveniences of hetero married couples, ya know. Words should not defeat principles. I care about and defend the timeless and universal principles of freedom and equality. There is no unrestricted right to marry anyone in this country whether one is straight, gay, or bisexual. You don't need a specific right for the items I mentioned to be valid. Having conditions placed on eligibility for marriage is not the same as being imprisoned and officially labeled an enemy. It's not even close. Right, they aren't the same, but the victims share some things and I mentioned some of them.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourNut wrote:As long as same sex couples get the same tax-funded benefits and other conveniences. Words should not defeat principles. I care about and defend the timeless and universal principles of freedom and equality. Someone said, "All men are created equal." 'nuff said.
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
shirohniichan Original500© Member Obscurius per obscurum
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourNut wrote: Wow-- so if you're placed in jail without charge for 3 1/2 years for being Italian American, it's the same to you as not being able to marry another man, your sister, a few women, etc? You are correct-- I should not have said "the same". They are far from being similar or analogous, however, and that was my main point. To even make the connection between the internment, slavery, the Holocaust, or any other great evil to defining marriage as between one man and one woman is absurd. You can come up with another word besides "marriage," or make up new words that are just for religious marriages of certain types. Or come up with different words for different arrangements, I don't care. As long as same sex couples get the same tax-funded benefits and other conveniences. It's partly their tax dollars funding the conveniences of hetero married couples, ya know. Words should not defeat principles. I care about and defend the timeless and universal principles of freedom and equality. That's fine. Governments tax what they want to discourage (with many exceptions) and fund what they want to promote. Currently we subsidize marriage between one man and one woman because until now we have believed this is the most beneficial to society. We discriminated against Mormons when we required Utah to give up polygamy in order to be admitted into the Union. If the Fed decides unions between same-sex partners, multiple partners, family members (perhaps restricted to on-sexual unions in this case) are equally beneficial, then it can remove marriage benefits or bestow them to all.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Basically, I consider denying same-sex couples the same tax-funded privileges and conveniences of heterosexual couples to be a violation of their rights and freedoms on principle. So being mistreated based upon ethnic origin, which is what your example was about, can share some powerful similarities as being mistreated or discriminated against on the basis of gender. It's a civil rights, or rights issue to me. Your love or union, or you, shouldn't be treated as a second class citizen in effect. People should not be treated as inferior or second class because of their ethnic origin or sexual organs. Resistance to this, just like many other things in the past, can be traced back to archaic standards and understanding - i.e. organized religion. Slavery of the mind, sourced to a time when freedom didn't sing. That is why it is no coincidence that you are religious and take the position you do. It's a nasty remnant of a dark age that still persists but is being noticeably trampled. Other forms of discrimination went through the same battle and process, as you know.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
To even make the connection between the internment, slavery, the Holocaust, or any other great evil to defining marriage as between one man and one woman is absurd. No it's not - not if you are discussing the principles of freedom and equality. Mistreating people and rendering them as second class or inferior goes against those principles whether it is due to taxing, imprisoning, or making them outcasts. Denying women the vote is not so different than imprisoning someone over their religion in some ways, for example.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
shirohniichan Original500© Member Obscurius per obscurum
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourNut wrote: To even make the connection between the internment, slavery, the Holocaust, or any other great evil to defining marriage as between one man and one woman is absurd. It's as different as slapping someone and shooting them multiple times. They're both violence, after all.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shirohniichan wrote: 24HourNut wrote:To even make the connection between the internment, slavery, the Holocaust, or any other great evil to defining marriage as between one man and one woman is absurd. Right, they are both violence - and presumably, both involved in a principle that says you should not be assaulted. Obviously one is far worse to the target, just like slavery is far worse than disallowing interracial marriages, women the vote, or same-sex couple equality. But they do share some basic elements. The fact that there is something worse, or that you can find worse than denying women the vote, let's say, doesn't make the principle that says they should have the vote any less important. Denying homosexuals the basic respect and convenience of a household demoralizes and outcasts them as second class. That is an attack on the basic principles of freedom and equality and that is what makes it very important. It is an attack on gender. That is what makes it in the same archaic and unfair boat as denying women the vote. It's the 21st century, not archaic religion land. People should not be penalized for having breasts or testicles, whether we are talking about imprisonment, outcasting, denying basic civil rights, taxation, or assault. Same for ethnic origin.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
shirohniichan Original500© Member Obscurius per obscurum
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourNut wrote: shirohniichan wrote:24HourNut wrote:To even make the connection between the internment, slavery, the Holocaust, or any other great evil to defining marriage as between one man and one woman is absurd. You do realize that homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, don't you? Heterosexuals do not have the right to marry anyone they love, and neither do homosexuals. There are restrictions on marriage, but that is different from saying gays and straights have different civil rights.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You do realize that homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, don't you? Heterosexuals do not have the right to marry anyone they love, and neither do homosexuals. There are restrictions on marriage, but that is different from saying gays and straights have different civil rights. That line of logic is cute, but totally fails to address the lack of equality we all know exists and usually serves as a coverup for those who use the Bible or some other archaic religious source as their way of viewing freedom and equalty. Gays are denied their right to equality. It's simply wrong for Government to discriminate against them as they currently do - unless you are going to assert that gays should be second class and treated unfairly or with less privilege by Government than heterosexuals. Denying same-sex couples the same privileges and conveniences as heterosexual couples is treating them as second class, using their tax dollars to fund their own discrimination, and denying them the right to equality under law in regard to everything from benefits to legal rights regarding their life partner. Here is the bottom line: Government and the legislature through its laws has already said discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual orientation is wrong. Therefore Government should not recognize or treat same-sex couples with less benefits, entitlements, rights, and conveniences than heterosexual couples. If they do, they are guilty of unfair discrimination and that violates the right to equality and fair treatment under law. Tax dollars should treat gays and straights the same, period. Right now, they don't. That's a violation of the principles of freedom and equality that you are apparently comfortable with. That makes you a poor guardian of freedom, and a biased, religious person who is trying to make the case for treating gays in an inferior fashion.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > The dangers of hyperbole and exaggeration in political discourse | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Site Supporters | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Posts Of The Day | Mock Forums | WowClassic | |
Themes and most mods done in collaboration with: WowClassic - powerful forum software with the best support service.
We are partners with Forum Owner Services
Powered by - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez
We are partners with Forum Owner Services
Powered by - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez