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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > I wonder why Obama has just gone over to India to talk to the |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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Well at least he's on your ass and not mine! Got to thank you for that Mill! Last edited on 10:49 pm by foxglovepress  Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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aknow Original500© Member
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Mill: You really must stop skipping your meds. Your mind is a dark and very scary place. You really do belong in the military, on the front lines of your make believe wars. Dr. Steve
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Millennium Original500© Member
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Mill: You really must stop skipping your meds. Your mind is a dark and very scary place. You really do belong in the military, on the front lines of your make believe wars. Dr. Steve ....And Saint's little pet monkey comes out of hiding. Last edited on 01:40 am by Millennium |
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muddawber Guardian1000© Member 
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Millennium wrote: Mill: You really must stop skipping your meds. Your mind is a dark and very scary place. You really do belong in the military, on the front lines of your make believe wars. Dr. Steve 
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Howdy ... Please attack the ideas and not the person. Please avoid name-calling and personal attacks.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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Mill: You really must stop skipping your meds. Your mind is a dark and very scary place. You really do belong in the military, on the front lines of your make believe wars. Dr. Steve One kind of leads to the other doesn't it Frank.
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
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aknow wrote:Mill: You really must stop skipping your meds. Your mind is a dark and very scary place. You really do belong in the military, on the front lines of your make believe wars. I've been reading "All Quiet on the Western Front" recently, and I'm remembering one of the stories that my father told of WWII. He was flying interdiction in Italy. His job: blow up trains, planes, truck convoys, and automobiles. Anything to keep the Nazis from supplying their forces. Now...the Nazis were skunks. We all know that. They could give lessons to the terrorists of today. Their standard procedure was to stop at all the little villages along the way and load up their weapons/ammo/troop train with young mothers and their babies. They'd have the mothers and babies sit on top of the cars, covered by machine guns with the instructions that when an Allied plane came by, they were to hold their children up in the air and scream "Don't kill us!" or the Nazis would shoot them all. It was my father's job to dive down on those trains and blow them to bits...troops, ammo, mothers, babies and all. That gave him trouble but, of course, to let the troop train through was to lose the battle, possibly the war, and knowing Hitler, if your hair wasn't the color of mine, you'd be dead right now. That's why I resent Millenium's sarcastic dismissal of President Obama's ideas of diplomacy first, talk first, and blasting babies to pieces second. The "shoot first and ask questions later" approach might sound nice in a soundbite, the reality is very different. I've seen them pick the pieces of my friends from jet crashes, and I know the horror of seeing guys you just drank a beer with the night before be carried away in a plastic bag toosmall for a Thanksgiving turkey. So I know, there's nothing wrong with talking first instead of going guns-blazing. George Bush didn't like to talk. If he had, would we have found out that there really weren't any WMDs in Iraq before 4000 of our young men died? President Obama wants to talk with the more radical elements in the world. Is there a chance that some of them may decide that it's just not worth thee devastation of war? Maybe. Muamar Quadaffi quit the terrorist business. Maybe not. But it's worth a try, and while he's doing it, you can be sure to God that I will NOT be sneering and calling for violence out-of-hand. The dead souls of 4000 american soldiers in Iraq are crying out to you, Mil... Ad they're saying, "Talk before you shoot. Make sure that our sacrifice is the very last option."
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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"The dead souls of 4000 american soldiers in Iraq are crying out to you, Mil..." You hypocrite...You make up a damn story about me trying to make the terrorist activities in India a poltical thing, and then YOU come back with this, about OUR fighting men and women..you POS..how dare you, that's as unAmerican as it comes, I am embarrassed for you, Go climb into bad with the America hating crowd, you certainly belong.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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Saint wrote: aknow wrote: Hi, Saint. Ordinarily, "Talk before you shoot." is a good start. But the problem here is, talk is seen by the enemy as weakness. Think about what happened when the Europeans negotiated with Hitler at Munich. If that had been successful, your father wouldn't have had to bomb those trains. But there was never a chance that it was going to be successful, because the whole thing was done in bad faith, after Hitler had already moved on Austria. The time for negotiation is before your enemy proves that they can't be trusted. Once they've shown they can't be trusted, negotiation is foolish. Applying this to the current situation in Afghanistan: What possible negotiations could you have with an enemy that targets innocents to blow up? What can you possibly say to someone who would knowingly kill civilians in a marketplace, or fly planes into buildings, just to scare a population? I really don't think there's much you can say, other than "You'll die now." To answer your question: The more radical elements in the world don't care about the ravages of war. These nutjobs would like nothing better than to die for their cause. They consider suffering a sign that they're doing the right thing. The benefit to us of killing such people is that for every one of them you kill, there's one less person you have to fight against. Letting them live simply isn't an option. I've had issues with how we've fought these wars, but not that we've fought them. And finally, I would like to implore everyone in this thread (and on this forum): Please refrain from personal attacks. Frank has already mentioned this. The vicious back and forth has to stop. Attacking ideas is one thing. Attacking people is quite another.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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I agree with Brian. One thing I will point out though. Mil, blacksheep, and their little compatriots have ALWAYS maintained that Obama said he'd talk. Obama has never ONCE said he'd talk to Bin Laden, only that he would do diligent diplomacy with NATION STATES first --- Obama has said HE will find and kill Bin Laden. Bush said (and I can prove it) -- that he doesn't CARE about Bin Laden any more, and thinks that Bin Laden is not important. He said that BEFORE multiple AQ attacks in other parts of the world --- not afterwards, not after sufficient retribution was taken by other nations. You know what? I think OBAMA is going to be the one that succeeds in destroying Al-Queda in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Because he's the one that WANTS to do that. Bush has proven he cares more about revenging Saddam's threats to his father than he does Bin Laden. That, too, is a Googleable statement - I think there's even a Youtube clip of him saying from behind the WH podium. You ask me? I tell you -- Obama DOES NOT want to "talk" to Bin Laden or any other terrorist individual or group. He'll do nation-to-nation diplomacy -up to a point- under certain conditions with nations. Not "talk to any terrorist" There is NO statement on record indicating that Obama would talk to "every terrorist" before taking them out. None. But that's just the kind of twisting and warping that the NeoCons do --- I don't like Obama's talking to some nations either-- But I have enough HONOR not to twist what he said to be taken far more broadly than he said it. I may not like it, but I won't TWIST Obama's words the way the whimpering conservatives do.
Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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sirlamre wrote: I agree with Brian. I'm not sure what you'd call "dilligent diplomacy with nation states". Obama has said that he would sit down and talk with the leaders of terrorist states (e.g., North Korea, who he said he'd talk to before they were taken off the terrorist nation list, and Syria). It's simply not enough to say that you'd refrain from talking to individual terrorists like Bin Laden. That should be a given. Only an idiot would do that, and I might not like the guy, but I don't think Obama is an idiot. sirlamre wrote: Obama has said HE will find and kill Bin Laden. There's actually some evidence that Bin Laden isn't important anymore. All evidence I've seen is that al Qaeda is decentralized. You could kill Bin Laden and put his severed head on CNN 24/7, and it would probably have very little effect. And that's if he's even alive. I'm not sure we know one way or the other if he is. What if he's already dead and we don't know about it? Would chasing a ghost for the next 20 years do anything for us? I really think it would just make us look weak and ineffectual. I think there was a time, early on, where capturing or killing Bin Laden would've been an achievable symbolic victory. But I think that time has passed. In that respect, I don't agree with how Obama or McCain played that angle up. sirlamre wrote: He said that BEFORE multiple AQ attacks in other parts of the world --- not afterwards, not after sufficient retribution was taken by other nations. There are Googleable (nice word, by the way  ) statements of Bush pointing out that Saddam tried to kill his "Dad" when he was trying to justify saying that Saddam's was a terrorist regime. I've never heard him (and can't find any reference to him) comparing the two things (Bin Laden and Saddam), and saying that removing Saddam was more important because of the threat on his father. Not saying it didn't happen, but I'd be very surprised if something like that was said publicly.sirlamre wrote:
About terrorist individuals, I'd agree with you. I'm not sure about terrorist groups, though. First, governments could be considered groups. And second (as McCain also did at some point early on), Obama has advocated talks with Hamas. And this is another one of those situations where the terrorists happen to be running the country. So it's not always as simple as, "I'll deal with nations, but not with terrorists." sirlamre wrote: He'll do nation-to-nation diplomacy -up to a point- under certain conditions with nations. Obama hasn't said directly that he'd talk with terrorists, but how do you square his statements with the fact that some regimes he would talk to are terrorist regimes?
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Playing to a different drummer
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Brian wrote:
Simply, a lack of understanding of the tenents of Islam and background on how Islam lies too and deceives the infidels. If Obama did a little background research instead of watching ABC,CBS or CNN he would see that negotiation is futile if you are an infidel and are not loyal to Allah and Muhammed his prophet.
There's a saying. If you want someone to love you forever, buy a dog, feed it and keep it around. Dick Dale |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Brian wrote: I really don't think that's it. First of all, some of the governments we're talking about (e.g., N. Korea) aren't Muslim nations. Islam has nothing to do with them. Secondly, you expect the people you're negotiating with not to reveal all of their true motives. That would be true whether they were Muslim or not. I really think the problem with the way Obama is seeing this (as far as I can perceive it, and I certainly may be wrong), is that, as Saint described, negotiations are always preferable to war, no matter which government you're dealing with, until you have absolutely no choice. That's the part I don't think is reasonable. Yes, war should never be a first choice, but it shouldn't necessarily be on the bottom of the list, either. There are some situations where going to war is preferable to the alternative, and those situations extend to more than just defense of your physical territory.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Brian wrote: Yes, war should never be a first choice, but it shouldn't necessarily be on the bottom of the list, either. There are some situations where going to war is preferable to the alternative, and those situations extend to more than just defense of your physical territory. And that's my point-- Given that I was not involved in pre-bias when I heard Obama say those things, I didn't hear what he said as meaning "I'll always talk and talk and talk and talk and I'll NEVER defend our country, I'll talk and talk and talk to any terrorist or threatening person even when I should have been shooting long ago." And opposite to that, Bush got the reputation for "I'll never talk to anyone, I'll just shoot 'em first and let God sort out ALL the non-patriots from the real patriotic Americans" Neither attitude is correct. Neither one is what either candidate actually SAID, much less meant. But try convincing Mill and BSHEEP of the one view, or aknow and WSM of the other.
Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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Mil, blacksheep, and their little compatriots have ALWAYS maintained that Obama said he'd talk. Wrong. I always reported what Obama himself said....Thathe would try "reasoning" first... Obama has never ONCE said he'd talk to Bin Laden, only that he would do diligent diplomacy with NATION STATES first -- I never said he would..but again..Islam consideres itself a "nation"...So if a group of "people" fighting as terrorist for the nation of Isalm, want to sit down with him, does that mean he'll negotiate with them?? Obama has said HE will find and kill Bin Laden. So did Bush...at the beginning...just as Obama is stating now....But we'll see...The fact that we have cornered him up in a small section of the world should make it easier for Obama...After all, we have been pursuing them for years now...It'll be convient for Obama to come in, do the mopping up, and claim victory, while the pudding heads on the left swoon... He'll do nation-to-nation diplomacy -up to a point- under certain conditions with nations. Not "talk to any terrorist" Dealing with nations that support terrorism, IS talking to terrorists...or have you not figured that one out yet? Are you so delusional as to think these individuals doing these evil deeds aren't employed by a nation, that fully supports them? There is NO statement on record indicating that Obama would talk to "every terrorist" before taking them out. Nobody here has said that...no need to make up a story...no need to twist the facts to suit your agenda. But I have enough HONOR not to twist what he said to be taken far more broadly than he said it. I may not like it, but I won't TWIST Obama's words the way the whimpering conservatives do. Again..no body here was inferring what you are claiming...Most of us here know what the man said...after all, his history with a known terrorists is well documented...He gets along quite well with them it appears.(Google: Rashid Khalidi and Obama).The "wimpering conservatives" won't have to twist his words...During the campaign, we all got to see what kind of man of his word he is...Need I remind you? Time will tell what the man will do....He's a slick talker, with a unique way of telling his supporters what they want to hear..always leaving a way out... I'll give him props for that, he's well equipped to sucker the masses. Enjoy the ride. Last edited on 03:22 am by Millennium |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > I wonder why Obama has just gone over to India to talk to the | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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