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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Will Obama Put A Stop To This? |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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One of the first rules of war is to avoid shooting yourself in the head. 
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: foxglovepress wrote:This is where I believe we need to take a hard stand BECAUSE we are are war, we should close our borders. It's time! Shut them down for one full year, stop everything from crossing! Can you explain how we Americans can't survive for a year? Don't we have food? We have oil, we have power, once we start shipping illegals out, we'd have even more. Sure it would be uncomfortable and hard. I'm not understanding why it would be impossible though. If we need other countries food, to survive, then we could allow it threw Canada. Keep one border open on the west US, and one port open in the east US. I'm brainstorming here. ANYTHING would be better than losing our country which is exactly what's happening.
 Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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foxglovepress wrote: Brian wrote:foxglovepress wrote:This is where I believe we need to take a hard stand BECAUSE we are are war, we should close our borders. It's time! Shut them down for one full year, stop everything from crossing! Hi, Fox. We don't have enough oil or power on our own to survive on it for a year. The amount of power we produce ourselves is relatively small. That needs to change, of course, but we're not going to be energy independent for some years to come. The food situation isn't as bad, but it's not good, either. According to this article, "imports account for 80% of the nation's seafood, 45% of its fresh fruit and 17% of its fresh vegetables". Now, would that mean we'd all starve within a year? Probably not. I don't see meat and grain on the import list, for one thing. But it would be a drastic change in our nutrition, and I venture to guess there would be widespread malnutrition and disease because of it. And what food was available would be significantly more expensive because of demand. Keeping the eastern seaboard and Canada's border open would fix the food situation, of course, but then you've got the illegal situation all over again. It would work something like this: 1) Board a boat from Mexico. 2) Land somewhere off the coast of NY, NJ, or Florida. or: 2) Take the boat a little farther north, and sneak in from Canada. If the borders are open, people will get in. The trick is to put safeguards in place where they can be identified relatively easily. And that starts by taking inventory of the people already here. You can't do that if people are hiding from "La Migra". On the other hand, if you show people already here that poppping their heads up doesn't mean instant deportation, and that they might get a chance at staying, they're more likely to let themselves be counted than if you hunt them down like dogs.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Summary: No exact head count exists for the ghost population of illegal aliens residing in the United States. Data compiled by the U.S. Census Bureau (USCB) and by national surveys, governmental agencies, nongovernment statistics-keeping agencies, philanthropic organizations, religious charities, and immigrant advocates are used in estimates ranging from 7 million to 20 million. This article demonstrates that this number is closer to 2 times 20 million. Brian, is this count is even a fraction of accuracy, leaving illegals here and making them all legal over night, would in itself destroy this country. It's all the people who don't want to be American that are going to change the whole spin on our country, our sovereignty, our standards and our safety. Illegals are crossing out borders by the thousands everyday. I'm in contact with people who work our borders! Now, the drug cartels are all moving into the US, bringing even more gangs adding to all those we already have. Cities of internationals are cropping up all over this country, voting in their own government forces to send to Washington DC. La Rasa and the ACLU are helping them with all this. We Americans are out numbered with anyone helping on our side. This IS war!! You do whatever it takes to put a stop to it. We may have to suffer some food changes, we may have to keep the two entry points I suggested open for fuel, but if our military was manning all our border line, and manning those two ports of entry 24/7, then the chances of thousands a day would come to a halt! In my opinion, what you're suggesting is how this should have been handled years ago! You're trying to put a band aid on a severed artery. It's time for the emergency room. Were past trying to handle this in the comfort of our homes. Get the motor started, and head for the ER!
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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foxglovepress wrote: Summary: Hi, Fox. I don't doubt for a minute that the situation is serious. I don't think that's the issue. The issue is, what's the way to stop it that's reasonable? As I said, if you're going to keep any access routes open, you're going to have illegals. That's just the way it is. Nothing is going to change that. Not even armed guards at every access point. If it was completely preventable, it wouldn't happen. I read the article you quoted. I don't have any more faith in the numbers the author comes up with than with the government numbers. (In fact, I have considerably less faith, since he seems to rely heavily on extrapolations from anecdotal evidence.) The basic problem is that he doesn't quote any sources that he trusts. Almost all his quotes of (non-anecdotal) data come from people or groups whose data he finds fault with. But it doesn't matter what the numbers are. 2 million or 20 million isn't the point. The point is, immigration policy has to be both enforceable and strict. Deporting people on sight isn't enforceable (or legal, even). And it just scares people into the shadows (which is why no one can get an accurate count of them in the first place). We're also not just talking about "food changes". If you take that many fruits and vegetables off the table, you're talking about widespread malnutrition, at best. That's why a total shutdown of the border wouldn't work. Closing the border with Mexico and leaving the eastern seaboard and Canada's border open would help with that, but not much. Rerouting the food supply like that isn't going to work for a lot of companies exporting to the U.S.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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"our lobbyists on both sides aren't taking care of WE THE PEOPLE!" FGP, that is what Lobbyists DO... they ALL serve "special interests" that ARE NOT working in ANY WAY towards the best interest of the CITIZENS. This is why I LOATHE every single Lobbyist and special interest group and corporation and "industry advocate" that EXISTS. They do NOT work for the Citizens =--- they ONLY work to ensure the $$$PROFITS$$$ of the people who hire them--- at all costs, whether that's ==good== for the Citizen or not. Everyone just assumes that if a company can make money, then any profits they make will ALWAYS be good for the citizens, therefore, anything we do to ensure their profitability is "good for the country" That attitude HAS to stop. Last edited on 11:56 pm by sirlamre Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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they ALL serve "special interests" that ARE NOT working in ANY WAY towards the best interest of the CITIZENS That's not true...While there is a large amount of Lobbyists that do work for lawyers, companies etc...there is also a large amount that do work for the special interest of the citizens....A simple internet search will show that.... So in effect they all serve special interests, but not all of them are bad.....for instance, are the Lobbyists that want to stop illegal immigration bad? So, an all encompassing statement such as "they ALL serve "special interests" that ARE NOT working in ANY WAY towards the best interest of the CITIZENS"...Is totally misleading.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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Millennium wrote: they ALL serve "special interests" that ARE NOT working in ANY WAY towards the best interest of the CITIZENS I see what you're saying, Mill, but I think sirlamre was being more specific than that in his comment. He was saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong about this) that the lobbyists aren't serving the best interests of ALL the citizens (i.e., American citizens in general). I think it's self-evident that lobbyists work for the interests of some citizens. That's their purpose, after all. I don't think the problem is lobbyists, in general. it's more specific than that. The problem comes in when huge corporations hire lobbyists that come bearing money, gifts, or favors. Lobbyists should be able to (should have to) persuade lawmakers with nothing more than an argument and a pledge of the votes of the people they represent. Now, if the lobbyist represents a company that employs 20,000 people, that can be a powerful persuader, but the point is, it shouldn't involve money or favors. It should just be a request to address grievances, like the Constitution provides for.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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but I think sirlamre was being more specific than that in his comment. He was saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong about this) that the lobbyists aren't serving the best interests of ALL the citizens (i.e., American citizens in general). I think it's self-evident that lobbyists work for the interests of some citizens. That's their purpose, after all. Well if that were the case, you could substitute the word Republicans or Democrats in the place of lobbyists and the meaning would be nearly the same...I took it as he had a strong objection to ALL lobbyists and they all were bad...looking at the words he highlighted anyway. This is why I LOATHE every single Lobbyist and special interest group and corporation and "industry advocate" that EXISTS. They do NOT work for the Citizens =--- they ONLY work to ensure the $$$PROFITS$$$ of the people who hire them--- at all costs, whether that's ==good== for the Citizen or not. Seems like here, it's pretty clear he thinks they're all bad. But whatever.. Last edited on 12:39 am by Millennium |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: foxglovepress wrote: Summary:
FGP: If you have two areas of entry to the United States, and those two areas are manned by our military, like the guards at military gates, I'll wager to bet the amount of illegals entering our country would drop 80%. We would need the military all along the land border as will. It would make a huge difference. I read the article you quoted. I don't have any more faith in the numbers the author comes up with than with the government numbers. (In fact, I have considerably less faith, since he seems to rely heavily on extrapolations from anecdotal evidence.) The basic problem is that he doesn't quote any sources that he trusts. Almost all his quotes of (non-anecdotal) data come from people or groups whose data he finds fault with. FGP: Exactly right about the numbers. They change day to day as more pour in, and some are deported. The fact is, there are hundreds of thousands, and more each day!!
FGP: People would have to learn to eat wise. You yourself said the food situation wouldn't be all that devastating over a period of one year. Vitamins, proper diet, who knows maybe Americans would drop some of the crap foods they eat along with all that weight, and become more healthy in the process. We would have meat, eggs, vitamin's, milk, people could grow vegetables from seeds inside if need be. This is what I'm saying, people here don't know how to survive. They don't want to lose any comfort Brian........so in the process they'll lose their country.
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: Millennium wrote:they ALL serve "special interests" that ARE NOT working in ANY WAY towards the best interest of the CITIZENS I have to go with Mil on this one Brian. It's pretty clear that sirlamre didn't say this...you're saying it. And Mil is saying it, but sirlamre didn't say it. Sirlamre said NONE of them took care of citizens. I can clearly see where Mil would come up with the thought he had.
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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ARGH!!! and that was a clear one too.. Anyhow-- Lobbyists may CLAIM to represent the interests of their companies employeers (ergo, their votes) Not true though. Unless you're in the UAW, you have NO SAY in what your corporate masters are lobbying for. Odds are, you don't even KNOW, unless it's part of your job description to be told what they are. I think that's the rule, not the exception. Dell's tech support is an example. Dell lobbied along with other manufacturers for changes to tax laws and other regulation, when they started moving jobs overseas. Their employees DID NOT support that in ANY way. It cost them their JOBS to "support it" -- why in the WORLD would they have? Insurance is another one--- Back during the big housing boom in Florida, just before FL took 5 hurricanes in one year, the insurance companes had lobbied to have the regulations on insurance CHANGED to repeal a regulation stating that they HAD to disclose some of the most common conditions under which a claim might be denied --- in effect, they wanted their sales brochures and application forms to be a whitewash of reality, making it appear as though there would be no reason a claim wouldn't be paid. Their lobbyists in fact DID go hat in hand, saying "we represent 20,000 votes" blah blah blah. in NO way was that true. Opponents did a successful poll of employees and others and found MASSIVE support against repealing that law. Sure, there are easy cases where it's "the government wants to eliminate all steelworker jobs, and every steelworker in America is supporting the lobbying to stop that" But rarely is it that clear cut and even more rarely is it so clearly on behalf of the rank and file worker as opposed to being far more a golden parachute bennie for management. Last edited on 01:00 am by sirlamre Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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ARGH!!! Welcome to the club.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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foxglovepress wrote: Brian wrote:Hi, Fox. Doubtless, the number of illegals would drop, but probably not by 80%. If you have a policy that says some people can come, and some people can't, you're inevitably going to confuse one group with the other. Combine that with the fact that we're still going to have people using false papers, and you can see what the problem becomes. foxglovepress wrote: I read the article you quoted. I don't have any more faith in the numbers the author comes up with than with the government numbers. (In fact, I have considerably less faith, since he seems to rely heavily on extrapolations from anecdotal evidence.) The basic problem is that he doesn't quote any sources that he trusts. Almost all his quotes of (non-anecdotal) data come from people or groups whose data he finds fault with. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
