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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Will Obama Put A Stop To This? |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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sirlamre wrote: ARGH!!! Hi, sirlamre. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you're looking at the issue broadly enough. There are times when some workers suffer, so that others can keep their jobs. To give you a simple example: If I have a business that employs 10,000 people, and I'm paying half of them minimum wage, the money for that has to come from somewhere in the budget. If the minimum wage goes up, then 5,000 of my employees have to be paid more. That increase in cost has to be offset somewhere -- either in the number of employees I have, or in the prices I charge customers. Increasing prices decreases demand, which also impacts labor. (If you have less people buying your goods, you don't need as many employees.) The point is, it's not a simple calculation. Things that may benefit employees in one way, might end up hurting them on the other end. Generally speaking, when companies are making more money, more people have jobs. When they're making less money, fewer people have jobs. So there's a tension between benefits (including wages) and jobs, which means it's not so easy to say that what the workers want (which is usually higher wages or more benefits) is actually what's good for them in the bigger picture. Obviously, if wages and benefits are too low, then workers don't benefit either way. But I think there's a sizable middle ground where there's a genuine tension.
 "It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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So you guys really believe we couldn't shut this country down for a year and make it huh. God, I find it hard to believe a country like this has to depend solely on other countries to survive for a year! If you're actually right, and we have to leave our borders open, then our country is gone as we know it. I don't know about you, but I'm for finding a way to keep it.......... There has to be a way of putting military at the border line across the country, and guarding the open gates then. There has to be a way of closing off the thousands who are coming in here everyday! We have to think out of the box, and quit relying on helping everyone else, and on taking the easy way.
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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foxglovepress wrote: So you guys really believe we couldn't shut this country down for a year and make it huh. Nope. I don't. I don't think we've been able to do that since maybe before the Industrial Revolution. Hell, even when we were founded, we had to have goods and food brought from England. (There's a reason the colonists were so pissed off they were getting taxed by Britain for tea...) If you think our economy's in the crapper now, you don't even want to know what we'd look like with 0 trade. It would truly be a horror to behold. A lot of what's put together here isn't manufactured here. A lot of it is "Made in China". To name one famous example, Dell would pretty much go out of business for the year if they couldn't get computer parts from China. Electronics would also take a big hit. And do I even have to mention cars? (I'm not just talking about Toyota or Nissan, either. There are a lot of American cars that rely on foreign parts, either from Japan or Germany.) I wouldn't say that the U.S. couldn't literally survive it. I think that's probably too strong. As a nation, the U.S. would soldier on. But it would bring about conditions that look a lot more like the Great Depression than the crisis we're having now. foxglovepress wrote: God, I find it hard to believe a country like this has to depend solely on other countries to survive for a year! If you're actually right, and we have to leave our borders open, then our country is gone as we know it. I don't know about you, but I'm for finding a way to keep it.......... There has to be a way of putting military at the border line across the country, and guarding the open gates then. There has to be a way of closing off the thousands who are coming in here everyday! We have to think out of the box, and quit relying on helping everyone else, and on taking the easy way.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Brian wrote:
Agreed Brian -- I'm not suggesting that EVERY time a company goes and lobbies for something, it's _always_ for the benefit of the management's salaries. But I do have one general belief-- I think American companies (and to a degree, Americans) have lost their way in terms of how to get ahead. Used to be, in our parents and grandparents generation, you did the work YOURSELF to get ahead. Now, companies don't want to make profits by making the best widget at the price that most people can buy it (eg, sell many many widgets at lower cost) They instead spend FAR too much time and money trying to gain advantage in other ways-- instead of out-competing the other company, they try to get legal advantages over them, etc etc-- instead of competing in a level market. Sure, there ARE cases where some companies need a balance given to them against foreign trade, etc -- but I think that's less than half the "cases" where this occurs, not "most" cases. WalMart- WalMart trying to get the city to agree to allow them to build on the same road as thelocal family owned discount store, between the family store and the neighborhoods. They try to force "sole supplier" contracts with vendors. Many small vendors are pissed about this one, as it means they HAVE to accept the price that WalMart is offering to sell their product, and KMart et al, is not allowed to bid or WalMart will not sell their product at any price. It used to be that companies would try to hire the very best workers and do the very best job motivating them to produce the most competitive widget. Now, if a company doesn't make a good enough widget, they just try to level the playing field against the companies making good widgets in other ways--- tariffs, price controls, whatever will work. Cars are another good example-- the UAW and Detroit have lobbied for YEARS for various things, instead of actually MAKING cars as good as Toyotas and Hondas and Subarus. Last edited on 02:07 am by sirlamre Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: foxglovepress wrote:So you guys really believe we couldn't shut this country down for a year and make it huh. Brian, I understand where you two are coming from, but I just don't buy it. Though I may not have the answers, I think that the American people (I'm talking true Americans) would suck it up and figure out a way to survive a year if it met gaining our country back. Remember we are the United States of America.....not the United States of the WORLD! Many of us who see whats happening the way this country is being divided and broken up, would gladly suffer some hardship to restore the good old USA.
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Millennium Original500© Member
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We can't shut this country down for a year...Fox......Go through your home...look at the stuff not made in America...Now..are you prepared to buy only things made in America by Americans? I would say first of all you aren't, and second of all, some of the items can't be purchased because the parts are not available in America. There are too many business that depend on foreign companies for their goods. because they can't be purchased here in America....My company is one of them. It would take more than a year for companies to tool up to fill the voids left...By that time, I would have gone under...
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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foxglovepress wrote:Brian, I understand where you two are coming from, but I just don't buy it. Though I may not have the answers, I think that the American people (I'm talking true Americans) would suck it up and figure out a way to survive a year if it met gaining our country back. Remember we are the United States of America.....not the United States of the WORLD! Many of us who see whats happening the way this country is being divided and broken up, would gladly suffer some hardship to restore the good old USA. I understand the sentiment, and to a point, I feel the same way. I do see things like outsourcing and illegal immigration as shameful. But we have to deal with the world as it is, not the world as we'd like it to be. The world as it is is too interconnected to allow us to withdraw like that. The cost of doing that would be enormous. As I said before, I don't think it would be completely impossible. Technically, it could probably be done without the United States completely collapsing. But not without a lot of death and suffering. And the kicker is, in the end, we'd just have to open up again, and we'd face the same problem. Even relatively closed societies like Russia face immigration problems. (In their case, it's with the Chinese.) We definitely shouldn't throw in the towel and let anyone who wants to come in just walk over the border. There have to be some legal restrictions in place. But you're not going to fix the problem by simply rounding up illegal immigrants and shipping them home. It would be like trying to dig to China using a teaspoon.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Then we're back to my idea, almost a year ago. Man the borders with our military, fire one warning shot in the air, and after that protect out country. As far as the border entry's we have now, we would have to place our military there as well. They guard foreign borders, they can guard ours. Sure some would get through, but not the thousands a day we have coming in now. All the while people are saying we can't do anything, nothing is stopping this invasion Mill. No ones protecting our borders except the Minutemen and women, the camera border patrols, and a handful of federal agents who are strung so far out, they aren't doing much of anything. I'm telling you, it's going to take a very drastic move to do something about this mess.
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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1jester Pioneer100© Member  Pilgrim Sojourner
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There's a big difference between isolating the country and stopping illegal immigration. There's no need, or even benefit, to closing down the borders completely and not accepting any foreign trade. Trade is good; illegal immigration is not. From what I gather, Foxey is merely trying to stem the overwhelming tide of illegal immigrants, which is completely possible without any undue influence on international trade. She is right about the illegal immigration; it is way past a tolerable level, and if it isn't stopped immediately, our once-great country will soon be relegated to the great dustbin of history. I don't know why so many Americans don't understand what's going on, or seem content to stand by and watch our republic be ripped apart by the seams. Additionally, it would be possible to man the borders and halt the herds of illegals from coming in, in my opinion. Of course, if the southern border were to be effectively sealed, illegals would continue to come in from other entry points, but it wouldn't be nearly as easy as simply swimming across the Rio Grande. A multi-pronged approach would have to be implemented. As Foxey has repeatedly shown, our governmental officials at all levels are actually supporting the illegal aliens' rights against our own citizens' rights. That obviously is unconscionable and treasonous. The constitution stipulates certain punishment for treason, does it not? Why are our "public servants" allowed to run rampant against our fellow citizens? Why are the laws not being enforced, not only against the illegal immigrants themselves, but those who aid and abet them in corporations and city hall? We ought to be ashamed of ourselves for turning a blind eye to this invasion that is killing our citizens and destroying our once-great nation, while we stand by idly and cheer it on.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. -Matthew 22:37-39 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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1jester wrote: There's a big difference between isolating the country and stopping illegal immigration. There's no need, or even benefit, to closing down the borders completely and not accepting any foreign trade. Trade is good; illegal immigration is not. From what I gather, Foxey is merely trying to stem the overwhelming tide of illegal immigrants, which is completely possible without any undue influence on international trade. She is right about the illegal immigration; it is way past a tolerable level, and if it isn't stopped immediately, our once-great country will soon be relegated to the great dustbin of history. I don't know why so many Americans don't understand what's going on, or seem content to stand by and watch our republic be ripped apart by the seams. Hi, 1jester. I do realize that stopping illegal immigration and stopping trade are two separate things. My point was that sealing the border would mean no trade. The border has to remain open for trade to happen. Additionally, you've got to let people in and out for trade to happen. (People travel for business, workers travel with the goods sometimes, etc.) I understand your point about treason, but it's a hard case to make. There are legitimate human rights issues involved, because people have certain rights, whether they're American citizens or not. (That's not just me talking. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that.)
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Playing to a different drummer
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Brian wrote: 1jester wrote:There's a big difference between isolating the country and stopping illegal immigration. There's no need, or even benefit, to closing down the borders completely and not accepting any foreign trade. Trade is good; illegal immigration is not. From what I gather, Foxey is merely trying to stem the overwhelming tide of illegal immigrants, which is completely possible without any undue influence on international trade. She is right about the illegal immigration; it is way past a tolerable level, and if it isn't stopped immediately, our once-great country will soon be relegated to the great dustbin of history. I don't know why so many Americans don't understand what's going on, or seem content to stand by and watch our republic be ripped apart by the seams. A limited sealing may be possible by sealing the Canadian border and Mexican borders. Not stopping ships or aircraft. We need to stop suspect people from entering, not incoming products and shipments.
There's a saying. If you want someone to love you forever, buy a dog, feed it and keep it around. Dick Dale |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Brian wrote:Hi, 1jester. That's a possibility, but it's still problematic. If you allow ships or aircraft to come in, illegals can come in through that route. I remember a case not long ago where Chinese immigrants (I think it was...) were snuck in by crates on ships. Don't get me wrong. It would certainly stem the flow a bit. But the coyotes would just figure out another way in. If there is a way in, they'll find it. That's why the real solution is probably a mix of tougher enforcement at the border but more reasonable treatment for those who are already here. The top concern needs to be knowing who's here, so we can keep track of them. Once we know they're here, we can figure out how to deal with them and how big of a problem we really have. If we don't know those things, we don't really have a chance to deal with them. It'll all be pissing in the wind.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Brian wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote:Brian wrote:Hi, 1jester. Brian how then do you suggest we shut the flow of illegals down? You're saying closing our borders can't happen, and keeping them open for trade only, won't work. You think we need to keep them all here now, only get to know who's who so to speak? Don't you think we have too many now? The ones we have here already are in the process of destroying this country. We've got to start shipping them out AND closing our borders down to these people before they just turn around and come back in again!! Everyone here will see to it that all their friends, family, and nationality coming in, will all have fake ID.......just like they do now!! You have to get rid of the illegal machine already here before you can be successful at stopping more from coming in. It's a huge undertaking! But if we don't start, and stay with it no matter what we Americans have to endure, our country as we know it will be gone forever.......
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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