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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Californians: Props 86 and 87??? |
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LanLord Pioneer100© Member  Sith Lord - Darth Ritus
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These two props have me at wits end, and not just because of the constant TV commercials. First off, I don't know enough about them, so anyone with an opinion (which is just about everyone here!) state yours. Secondly, the people making their arguments, all seem to have one or two good points when talking about their side, and one or two bad points when talking against the other side. Props like this make me want to pull my hair out, these almost seem like a lose-lose propositions.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Want to give a summary of them?
 Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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LanLord Pioneer100© Member Sith Lord - Darth Ritus
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sirlamre wrote: Want to give a summary of them? Prop 86 = tax on cigarettes http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/11/07/ca/state/prop/86/ I basically hate cigarettes, but I hate taxes more. I don't know if the benefit of this tax is really there or just another way to gouge money from a particular group of people. Prop 87 = Energy tax http://www.environmentcalifornia.org/energy/california-clean-energy-initiative This is supposedly a way to impose a tax on the energy producers that can't be passed on to the energy consumer. It is supposed to increased non-fossil fuel based energy (I believe) and reduce reliance on foreign oil. But again, I don't know if this is a bunch of hooy or not.
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Iwog Pioneer100© Member 
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I don't care about Prop. 86. I don't smoke, but I think the jihad against the tobacco industry is stupid. The war was actually won back in the 1960's when the industry was forced to tell people that cigarettes would kill them. I'll vote no simply because I don't believe it's my responsibility to levy taxes. That's what the state congress should be doing. I'm going to vote yes on Prop. 87. There are much bigger issues at stake than punishing the oil companies or raising revenue. Oil and gas NEED to become more expensive if we're going to survive this crisis. I would impliment a $2.00 per gallon tax on gasoline if I could, but Prop. 87 is better than nothing. The best arguments FOR Prop. 87 are actually on the AGAINST Prop. 87 website: http://www.nooiltax.com/ They say it will make gas and oil more expensive. GOOD! They say it will result in less oil being extracted from California. GOOD! This is a necessary tax and Chevron is completely full of shit when they oppose it.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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I don't know if I support higher prices for gas... I think too many people do NOT drive more than they have to. This business of treating the consumer as though HE is the problem, and is some kind of "drive all day and night because I want to" idiot needs to stop. There's a percentage of drivers who drive too much, I'm sure.. But, I've posted many times before exactly what the amount of driving that most folks I know do-- People get all filled up with bullshit about how everyone can just carpool until we look like a Mexican bus... and live in some 1950s Beaver's Mom kind of world where the kids are home all day except when they walk to the school on the corner and Mom makes one trip a week to the grocery, which is conveniently 6 blocks away, right next to the doctor's office. But, the simple reality is that MOST of our employers, day cares, and other organizations are NOT going to cooperate-- Visualize a carpool with 6 adults, 3 carseats, 5 kids--- all in one car.. Making a trip from two different daycares to 3 different employers. Oh wait-- Take the bus you say? 50% of American towns don't HAVE bus service that runs every 10 minutes... or out into suburbia.. Buy a house in town? yeah--- my 2000 square foot house 30 minutes from town cost me $150,000... In town, that'd be $410,000 for half the space... In short, the solutions that most laws want to indirectly impose on the CONSUMER don't WORK in too many places--- they're crafted by people thinking in Washington DC terms, or downtown New York terms.... I'd be happy to give the carmakers HUGE tax breaks as long as they PROVED each quarter that the resulting savings had been spent on EFFECTIVE development of hybrids... And have them give the buyer incentives on the HYBRIDS, not the SUVs they now cannot sell.... And that's before we even get to talking about how small a percentage of our crude oil use is actually for CONSUMER gasoline... Industry accounts for 80% of the crude use--- not you and me driving our toyota to and from the daycare, work, and the grocery store. There's better ways to reduce our usage of oil than to continue to whack the consumer over the head, instead of touching ANY other part of our usage of oil.... Whacking the consumer like this is just another scapegoat tactic by the politicians (on both sides of the aisle) who don't want to piss off the businesses who pay for their campaigns-- It's easy to just write another bill to raise taxes on the individual voter--- it's much scarier to write a bill that affects the profits of the big donor. It's time to stop pretending that Joe Consumer who does nothing but drive to work, the daycare, and the grocery store and WalMart is the source of 80% of the problem with oil usage.... Iwog wrote: I don't care about Prop. 86. I don't smoke, but I think the jihad against the tobacco industry is stupid. The war was actually won back in the 1960's when the industry was forced to tell people that cigarettes would kill them. I'll vote no simply because I don't believe it's my responsibility to levy taxes. That's what the state congress should be doing.
Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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Iwog Pioneer100© Member
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The consumer is going to get whacked no matter what the government does, even if taxes are kept at 0% for the next 100 years. The amount of oil is finite, therefore a day will come when gasoline prices go up every year forever. The big debate is does this happen in 2005 or does it happen in 2030? However it's a scientific fact that it WILL happen and all sources agree it will happen while many of us are still alive. Accepting this premise, the question then becomes what is the most effective and economically sound way of replacing oil and gas. Is it to make every effort to keep gasoline as cheap as possible for as long as possible, ensuring that eventually we'll face $20 per gallon fuel unprepared? Or is it to gradually increase the cost of fossil fuel by taxation, and earmark that money towards solar and nuclear energy so we'll have an alternative when the end comes? So for me it boils down to this: We either suffer a little bit now, or suffer unbearably later because we did nothing about the crisis.
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mnmcoin Original500© Member 
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Prop 87 Read... $4 billion dollar tax going to a commitee with no accountability and no changing it...no thank you. I agree something needs to be done, but this is not it. I hate just throwing money at a problem, without any basis. Can we honestly trust any of the reps in CA, much less the US reps on the whole with this kind of money and no accountability. morris <><
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Iwog Pioneer100© Member
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I have not drank of the kool aid. I don't buy the Reagan Republican lie that all government is evil and incapable of administering money for the public good. Unless the price of oil and gas go up, there will be no alternatives developed. It's as simple as that. Without alternatives to fossil fuel, this country has no future.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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I agree that the system must change-- But I think the costs of that should come out of incentives given to companies to change and innovate (and solid requirements and proof of success in order to not be 'reversed' on the incentive) Isn't it true that only a lesser percentage of a barrel of oil goes for direct consumer use? Given the ratios of gasoline use by the consumer vs the other uses made of each barrel of oil, what is the logic in constantly talking about raising the price of gas? Why not raise the cost of it ALL somewhat ... but also give HUGE incentives to companies to invent better technologies and make them cheaper to -start- with, instead of having electric cars that cost as much as an SUV, etc... Iwog wrote: The consumer is going to get whacked no matter what the government does, even if taxes are kept at 0% for the next 100 years.
Turn thou unto God and say: O my Sovereign Lord! I am but a vassal of Thine, and Thou art, in truth, the King of kings. I have lifted my suppliant hands unto the heaven of Thy grace and Thy bounties. |
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Iwog Pioneer100© Member
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sirlamre wrote: I agree that the system must change-- You cannot give corporations an incentive to develop alternative energy unless the incentive is GREATER than the profits received from supporting the status que. Since oil corporations are currently making insane amounts of money, it would take an insane incentive program to lure business away from oil and towards alternatives. Besides that, you only make corporations richer and more powerful. That's the WORST way to handle any crisis. Corporations are utterly incapable of acting for the pubic good. They were FORCED to give up slavery, they were FORCED to allow competition, they were FORCED to stop child labor, they were FORCED to build for the war effort in World War II, they were FORCED to make cars safer, they were FORCED to make cars with smog controls, they were FORCED to make cars fuel efficient, oil corporations were FORCED to drop lead from their fuels, and cigarette companies were FORCED to tell people the truth that smoking kills. For some reason, Americans fell for the fraud that the free market is capable of solving problems. Don't believe this lie. The only way we're ever going to get alternative energy sources is by driving the cost of fossil fuels so high, there will be no choice. Now this is going to happen no matter what. The only question is will we do it voluntarily or involuntarily when the oil runs out.
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Political Matters > Californians: Props 86 and 87??? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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