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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? |
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quottos Original500© Member
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The Bahai Faith cannot have any sects because the religion is about universality. They say that the Bahai Faith will not split into sects because of the unrolling of divine succession, however, and really, the Othordox Bahais are saying the same thing, as they have a person who is in linage of Kind David. As I got from Wiki: just because the number of followers in a group is not large, it does not mean that it is not a sect. As, I have encounted brags of millions who follow the Haifia Bahais, used as a tactic to elliminate the growing number of Bahai sects. The Bahai sects will not last, they will soon become exstint? The Bahais of Haifa tried to tell me, at one point, that the Babis were exstinct, ---try here: the religion of bayan, a babi website. I believe the Othodox Bahais formed in the early sixties and are going strong as is viewed on the internet. Bahais, the large group, have, as I have heard, are not encouraged to teach their relgion on the internet. My theory on this is that these bahai, who are the main group have exactly zero things to say to the bahai sects and all sects are shunned(most likey they cannot speak the word, 'sect' though). But use of the internet is the way of the future. Would you not agree?
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Free.man Original500© Member
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quottos wrote: The Bahai Faith cannot have any sects because the religion is about universality. They say that the Bahai Faith will not split into sects because of the unrolling of divine succession, however, and really, the Othordox Bahais are saying the same thing, as they have a person who is in linage of Kind David. Dear friend, I hope the above is not the sum total of what you know about the Bab'i or Baha'i Faith. There are so many misconceptions there that the only thing I can suggest is that you scrap it and start all over again. If you want to challenge Baha'i then you might want to study a whole lot more. I don't mind addressing your questions or concerns about the Baha'i Faith but you do need to be more informed. I don't expect you to be proficient in Arabic or Persian either but you do have to be willing to get basic information right. Re-check your vetted realia and get back to me. Other than that it just reads like some credulous rumored attempt to over-gormandize with lots of execration text. in ta'bir wa tamthil ast, majaz ast, nah haqiqat - Abdul'Baha Abbas Effendi - SAQ - p 85 or "Since a Tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him -- the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal - - that after dying the Tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is or is not." - Samyutta-nikaya; 111, 118 In other words: Try sticking to Maitrya-Amitabha You know the story of The Hen and Chicks? "As beings born in eggs are called egg-born, so all men, born in the egg-shell of ignorance, are called egg-born" - Anagatavamsa, iv. 84 Om Shante! Free.man
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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It is inevitable that there will be Bahai sects and that the Bahai faith will be another one in the basket for people in the world to naturally and predictably fight and have conflict over. That is part of the inherent problem with organized religions. This is why it is obvious to me a God would not want us to bother with them, and that we don't need them. Personal religion is just fine and avoids alotta bad stuff.
 The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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Yes, quottos, there are Baha'i sects. I think there are maybe three others besides the Orthodox Baha'is and the Haifa Baha'is.
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Free.man Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: It is inevitable that there will be Bahai sects and that the Bahai faith will be another one in the basket for people in the world to naturally and predictably fight and have conflict over. That is part of the inherent problem with organized religions. This is why it is obvious to me a God would not want us to bother with them, and that we don't need them. Personal religion is just fine and avoids alotta bad stuff. Dear friend, I have no doubt that people will try to create a Baha'i sect; however, until you actually study and understand the lengths that Baha'u'llah went to to secure against such from happening then it will remain just speculation. Shoghi Effendi was the Guardian because He was specifically appointed as the Guardian by the only person who had the authority given by Baha'u'llah to make such an appointment. Shoghi Effendi had to have appointed someone else after him to be the Guardian. He did not appoint anyone else to succeed him. All those who had the authority to appoint another Guardian are dead. End of story. Shoghi Effendi was appointed Guardian because of his knowledge of Baha'u'llah's and Abdul'Baha's Writings, knowledge of Arabic, knowledge of Persian, and lots more stuff too numerous to mention here. If all that is not good enough; Shoghi Effendi was a descendent from both the Bab and Baha'ullah. Baha'u'llah specifically wrote that any/all Guardians had to be a male descendent from both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. End of story. Non of the people who claim to be The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith except Shoghi Effendi met all the requirements that Baha'u'llah himself established. Non of those who said they were Guardians were appointed by Baha'u'llah nor Abdul'Baha nor Shoghi Effendi. They are all dead. Baha'u'llah wrote Himself or reviewed and verified everything that went out in His name(25k+ documents). Abdul'Baha lived with Baha'u'llah for some 50 years and he was a master at Arabic and Persian. Abdul'Baha, of all people, knew Baha'u'llah better than anyone else living during that time. Shoghi Effendi grew up around Abdul'Baha. No secret why he was appionted Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. Shoghi Effendi had no children. There is no one(regardless of their claim) that meets all the requirements set down by Baha'u'llah to be the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. There is no one who is a descendent with the required knowledge of the Baha'i Faith who was appointed by an authorized person provided for by Baha'u'llah. End of story! I'd say: Try away! But Why? The Baha'i Faith doesn't want other peoples money. The Baha'i Faith does not want political or other power. The Baha'i Faith does not want to be a government and rule over other people. A person would have to be nuts to want to be the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. Free.man
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  Smiling Shinobi
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EVERY religion has sects, schisms, divisions and disagreements. That because ALL religions are the product of human beings and the fact some of them cannot accept the fact they have an ego which they then externalise into a "god". Arguments over dogma, and ritual and interpretation ?, yet more evidence that all religion are the products of the human mind not the product of some all seeing all knowing creator.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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cynicalninja wrote:
That's a false premise. The information can be initially inspired by the Creator to the human/s and then "altered" by the human mind/s later.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Free.man, I am sure every organized religion had reasons why it should not have had sects or would not be a source of conflict, wars, and other problems - but that is the inherent problem with them, and the Bahai faith does the same basic thing regardless of how nicely you package or present it: it spreads yet another view of God's story and God's decisions (e.g. introducing yet another religion), and even claims specific micromanagment (no alcohol, etc.) - not to mention challenges everyone else's views of their own religion. Yes sir, it has everything you need to say it is another organized religion in the basket to pick from, with the same inherent dangers and problems, which is why conflict is already a part of it and why we will eventually see more conflict, confusion, and sects, in my opinion.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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24HourNut wrote: Free.man, I am sure every organized religion had reasons why it should not have had sects or would not be a source of conflict, wars, and other problems - but that is the inherent problem with them, and the Bahai faith does the same basic thing regardless of how nicely you package or present it: it spreads yet another view of God's story and God's decisions (e.g. introducing yet another religion), and even claims specific micromanagment (no alcohol, etc.) - not to mention challenges everyone else's views of their own religion. Yes sir, it has everything you need to say it is another organized religion in the basket to pick from, with the same inherent dangers and problems, which is why conflict is already a part of it and why we will eventually see more conflict, confusion, and sects, in my opinion. I think the danger of your, "all inclusive" "generic lumping" of religions into one basket is that I don't think you understand that maybe one could be "right"? If that's the case, have you really researched the religions that have some credible aspects to them or have you simply concluded in your own mind that ALL of them are self created ideas?
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Free.man, I am sure every organized religion had reasons why it should not have had sects or would not be a source of conflict, wars, and other problems - but that is the inherent problem with them, and the Bahai faith does the same basic thing regardless of how nicely you package or present it: it spreads yet another view of God's story and God's decisions (e.g. introducing yet another religion), and even claims specific micromanagment (no alcohol, etc.) - not to mention challenges everyone else's views of their own religion. Yes sir, it has everything you need to say it is another organized religion in the basket to pick from, with the same inherent dangers and problems, which is why conflict is already a part of it and why we will eventually see more conflict, confusion, and sects, in my opinion. Just like I have seen you say something about "putting the horse before the cart" when you were asked to research the Bahai scriptures since you could not even accept the basic premise being thrown at you, I am saying that by virtue of the fact that any of these popular organized religions could be the right one, no matter how much I researched it, I don't have to. They are obviously man-inspired and man-made and are based upon an obviously flawed text and test-based system obviously made up by archaic people. I don't consider stories with some historical truths or facts in them to be divine and special - lots of writings do that, including novels. It's absurd to expect people to research for decades to see if they can guess which one is right or more right. That is a clear red flag to me that I am not supposed to be deciding my relationship with God because of what other people wrote, say, debate, or feel. I lump them because they all share the same basic problems and traits and I find it absurd that am even supposed to care about picking a club on this subject.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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24HourNut wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote:24HourNut wrote:Free.man, I am sure every organized religion had reasons why it should not have had sects or would not be a source of conflict, wars, and other problems - but that is the inherent problem with them, and the Bahai faith does the same basic thing regardless of how nicely you package or present it: it spreads yet another view of God's story and God's decisions (e.g. introducing yet another religion), and even claims specific micromanagment (no alcohol, etc.) - not to mention challenges everyone else's views of their own religion. Yes sir, it has everything you need to say it is another organized religion in the basket to pick from, with the same inherent dangers and problems, which is why conflict is already a part of it and why we will eventually see more conflict, confusion, and sects, in my opinion. Fair enough.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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"Baha'u'llah specifically wrote that any/all Guardians had to be a male descendent from both the Bab and Baha'u'llah." This is one of the reasons I don't understand why there are even fake Guardians. Not ONE of the attempted Guardians who has existed has EVER been a male descendant of both the Bab AND Baha'u'llahs' line. And not ONE of them has ever disavowed the Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah, which is one of the places where the statement above is made. The other is the Aqdas itself, as far as I can recall. Neither of those documents has EVER been denied by anyone claiming to be a Guardian--- --they are forced to simply ignore the laws of Baha'u'llah, while claiming to be His representative. As far as goes other breakaway groups, such as those that don't choose to recognize the House, that is another matter But I've NEVER understood how anyone could have believed Charles Remy Mason, who COULD NOT have been a descendant of both of the Manifestations. And people WERE aware of the requirement-- it had been printed in Star of the West well before Remy made his claims.
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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Well, sirlamre, you act as if Remy were unaware of the requirements for succession. He was not. He sought to show how he fulfilled them, but even if he did, he died without a clear successor. There were three claimants at the time of his death--one who had claimed it during Remy's lifetime, one who made no claims as to descent, and one who didn't want it. The latter two of those are dead. The first is living in Australia. He also makes no claims about descent (as far as I know). So apart from one sect that expects a secret descendant to one day be revealed, the succession sects have no legitimate claim. Now, Mason Remy claimed that the process by which the Universal House of Justice was established violated the requirements set forth by Shoghi Effendi. I think that claim is worth examining. Last edited on 02:58 am by construct |
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Free.man Original500© Member
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construct wrote: Well, sirlamre, you act as if Remy were unaware of the requirements for succession. He was not. He sought to show how he fulfilled them, but even if he did, he died without a clear successor. There were three claimants at the time of his death--one who had claimed it during Remy's lifetime, one who made no claims as to descent, and one who didn't want it. The latter two of those are dead. The first is living in Australia. He also makes no claims about descent (as far as I know). So apart from one sect that expects a secret descendant to one day be revealed, the succession sects have no legitimate claim. Dear friend, Of course he was aware of the requirements for succession. He signed a document saying that exact thing along with the other Hands of the Cause. He knew he did not fulfill the requirements because he was not a descendent of either the Bab nor Baha'u'llah(who both are descendents from Abraham). Others being descended from this man have no claim to the Guardianship. End of story. Moreover, as you point out, He did not like the process by which the UHJ was established. That did not give him a valid reason to claim the Guardianship for himself. The Guardianship had to filled by someone who met *all* the requirements set down by Baha'u'llah. So, no matter what this group(or others) calls itself, it is not a sect of the Baha'i Faith. End of story. Free.man
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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I bet I could find someone who interprets the rules differently and sees them as allegorical. 
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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