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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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construct wrote: Shoghi Effendi had clearly said that the Universal House of Justice would be presided over by the Guardian. Correct. However, Shoghi Effendi never said, word-for-word, "if it is not possible to appoint a Guardian the Universal House of Justice has no authority and must be disbanded". Furthermore, as the 1940s drew to a close Shoghi Effendi must have been aware that he and his wife were too old to have children. And all of his male relatives, eligible to be appointed to the Guardianship, had broken the Covenant. But he never said it would be impossible to elect the House for the first time. And the Hands, who knew him and his plans best, certainly did not think from November 1957 to April 1963 they couldn't arrange for an election.
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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berinwitness has understood part of what I have said correctly. I went on to say that if Remey was not the Second Guardian, then there wasn't one to be the head of the Univeral House of Justice and the Baha'i faith should have died along with Shoghi Effendi's {now impossible) Ten Year Crusade. If he was the Second Guardian, then the Guardianship died no later than the death of Pepe Remey, his adopted son, who refused to accept the Guardianship. The headless body is an illegitimate institution with no legitimate authority at all. It has no authority over me because I am not a Baha'i--never have been and never will be. And it has no legitimate authority over anyone else because it was established in violation of Shoghi Effendi's Ten Year Crusade.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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construct wrote: if Remey was not the Second Guardian, then there wasn't one to be the head of the Univeral House of Justice and the Baha'i faith should have died along with Shoghi Effendi's {now impossible) Ten Year Crusade. From where do you get the idea that the Universal House of Justice cannot legitimately exist without a living Guardian? What is the authoritative source you are utilizing?
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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Here are a few texts to chew over. "In all countries a secondary House of Justice must be instituted, and these secondary Houses of Justice must elect the members of the Universal one." (Abd'ul-Baha. Will and Testament, p. 14.) "The Guardian of the Cause of God is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body [the Universal House of Justice]. Should he not attend in person its deliberations, he must appoint one to represent him." (Abd'ul-Baha. Will and Testament, p. 14.) "Acting in conjunction with each other these two inseparable institutions [the Guardianship and the Universal House of Justice] administer its [the Faith's] affairs, coordinate its activities, promote its interests, execute its laws and defend its subsidiary institutions." (Rabbani, Shoghi Effendi. The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 148.) "Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Baha'ullah would be mutilated and permanently deprived of that hereditary principle which, as Abd'ul-Baha has written, has been invariably upheld by the Law of God. 'In all the Divine dispensations,' he states, in a tablet addressed to a follower of the faith in Persia, 'the eldest son hath been given extraordinary distinctions. Even the station of prophethood hath been his birthright.' Without such an institution the integrity of the faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire fabric would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a series of generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary guidance to define the sphere of the legislative action of its elected representatives would be totally withdrawn." (Rabbani, Shoghi Effendi. The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 148.)
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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construct wrote: Here are a few texts to chew over. Okay. During the 36 years of Shoghi Effendi's Guardianship where was the Universal House of Justice? Do any of your quotes say the House cannot be elected unless there is a living Guardian?
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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The first quote says that the Universal House of Justice would be elected by the secondary Houses of Justice, and there weren't any secondary Houses of Justice in 1963.
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quottos Original500© Member
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Free.man, you asked me if that was all I knew about the Bahai Faith and then you didn`t let me answer before I said that that was all I knew. I was a Bahai for 22 years so I know some things. Your stance is typical: nothing really to say, except try to degrade me personally. Everything I said can be verified on the internet, and I wasn`t talking scripture at the time, nor do I need to.
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quottos Original500© Member
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Hi Sirlamre, Bab and Bahaullah are both in the Line of David.
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quottos Original500© Member
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I guess then that there are Bahai sects. Of course this is something that I don`t need to provide scripture for to prove, because by the way the talk went on this thread... there can be only one conclusion: yes bahai sects there are. But why would I have to provide scripture for such a question? Ok, maybe this one,(paraphasing), "that the Bahai Faith will splinter into 1000s of sects if they don`t follow the covanant." the quote went something like that. So what happened when the Universal House of Justice was first formed? As far as I can tell Shogii Effendi`s wife took control of the situation, ie, her ego took over and she made some decisions of her own. This is how the split has been documented for history; also, there are other splits. I noticed that at least one person here was still saying, 'no, there are no Bahai sects', and that is odd. I did a little experiment recently. I emailed many Bahai and asked them about the Bahai sects. I has about five or six reply and each email started off with the sentence, 'there are no bahai sects', all were exactly that sentence. I continued to email back and forth, eventually, each one of them change direction and told me, 'yes there are a few groups'. Yes!, I turned them right around, they told me that there are Bahai sects.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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quottos wrote: As far as I can tell Shogii Effendi`s wife took control of the situation, ie, her ego took over and she made some decisions of her own. This is how the split has been documented for history Please cite your sources.
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quottos Original500© Member
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I am not sure where I read that about Shogii Effendi`s wife, there would be two sides of the story anyways, but to me it sounds like that is what happened. After all Ruhiyyih Khanum was in a seat of great authority at the time, but she had no authority, and they were going to believe her no matter what. And it was her that caused that spilt in 1963. I cann`t remember where that story, of what went on in 1963, was published. The Haifa Bahai sources of reading material, the Orthodox reading material, the Bahais Under the Provision of the Covanant reading material, try reading all those places.
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quottos Original500© Member
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oh, Berinwitness, I forgot, the Covanant Breakers are shunned. Ok, http://www.maitreya.org has some material on this topic, and they are not shunned by the Bahais, as far as I know. Go to the main page and search for things Bahai. thank you from Q
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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quottos wrote: I am not sure where I read that about Shogii Effendi`s wife, there would be two sides of the story anyways, but to me it sounds like that is what happened. If you were a Baha'i for 22 years, wouldn't you be acquainted with what the Universal House of Justice said about the historical events of that time? Also, why would you be reading statements made by Covenant-breakers, unless you had ALREADY decided you no longer believed in Baha'u'llah?
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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quottos wrote: http://www.maitreya.org has some material on this topic. Go to the main page and search for things Bahai. I've read that section. I have some questions about it.
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quottos Original500© Member
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ok, go ahead with you questions, I just started another thread though.
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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