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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:That's not a valid excuse How are your attempts to get someone to have a different view a legitimate reason to totally change the methods of interpretation of scriptures? If you don't care about credibility or logic go right ahead but you go on and tell me how who you are trying to convince of something justifies using a method of interpretation you say they should not use on their own scriptures.
 The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: berinwitness wrote:24HourNut wrote:That's not a valid excuse Christians TELL me that I must believe what they say. They TELL me I have no right to even consider any viewpoint other than their own. They flatly refuse to answer any of my questions and then persist in TELLING me that I must give up my religion. By contrast Baha'is OFFER the Glad Tidings of the Message of Baha'u'llah to all the world. Our doctrines firmly forbid us to dictate what anyone must believe when investigating Baha'u'llah's claims. They have complete freedom to make up their own minds. To me that seems like two entirely different approaches. If Christians allowed the rest of us freedom of religion then I would not be asking questions on various forums - including 24Hour.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:berinwitness wrote:24HourNut wrote:That's not a valid excuse I didn't ask you about what Christians tell you or what Bahai's offer, or the dynamic you describe. I am asking about how dramatically changing a method of interpretation is AOK to do, especially just because of some goal you want to achieve in convincing whoever. You reject their literal interpretation of Jesus' Second Coming verses in the Bible yet now you use such a method of interpretation on Bahai scriptures. I was asking you to justify that lack of consistency with how we are to interpret God's "scriptures." I mean, do you have a rulebook from God or something that tells you to use literal on Bahai stuff but allegorical on Christian stuff? Let's not dance, shall we? Please, if you can, respond to my specific questions. Here they are again: 1. How is your desire to get someone to have a different view a legitimate reason to totally change the methods of interpretation of scriptures? 2. How does "who you are trying to convince of something" justify using a method of interpretation you don't use on their scriptures? I am not interested in excuses, I am interested in understanding why you don't think you should apply the methods of interpretation you used for understanding Bahai scriptures on Christian scripture. Why are the two scriptures needing different methods of interpretation and why your cherrypicking is AOK.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Jesus...above every other name
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Bruce D. Limber wrote:Nope: The Baha'i scriptures are crystal clear that there will be NO further Divine Revelator for at least a thousand years, and go on to state explicitly that this is literal and not subject to "figurative interpretation." 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: I am asking about how dramatically changing a method of interpretation is AOK to do, especially just because of some goal you want to achieve in convincing whoever. You reject their literal interpretation of Jesus' Second Coming verses in the Bible yet now you use such a method of interpretation on Bahai scriptures. I don't think I am clear on what you want to know. Are you asking why Baha'is have a symbolic interpretation of "clouds" and a literal interpretation of "one thousand years"?
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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24HourNut wrote: berinwitness wrote:24HourNut wrote:But why aren't you using the same standard methods of interpretation that your assertion requires be used while interpreting Bahai scriptures ... on the Bible? Frank. On rare occation I agree with you. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:I am asking about how dramatically changing a method of interpretation is AOK to do, especially just because of some goal you want to achieve in convincing whoever. You reject their literal interpretation of Jesus' Second Coming verses in the Bible yet now you use such a method of interpretation on Bahai scriptures. You really don't understand my questions? You use literal interpretation sometimes, like on the Bahai scriptures, but not other times, like on the various Christian scriptures about things, such as, Jesus's second coming. You understood me when I first said that your excuses are not valid for deviating from the methods of interpretation you condone, validate, and use for your own Scriptures because your response was: "Who says?" So you know you deviate - now we have to see why your excuse is valid. So when you quoted a passage that said "Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning" I was wondering what justifies you in switching, at will, between allegorical and literal to claim the "obvious meaning" as you obviously often do. 1. How do you justify your lack of consistency with the method of interpretation you use? I don't get how your response about "trying to convince of something" and what "Christians tell you" answers me or justifies using a method of interpretation I have seen you purposefully avoid using on Christian scriptures. 2. Why you don't think you should apply the methods of interpretation you used for understanding Bahai scriptures on Christian scripture, such as those various passages about Jesus' Second Coming? I am waiting for you to explain the switch in methods of interpretation. I want to know how they are divinely instructed to you so that you magically know when to switch between allegorical and literal. Surely you get my question now.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: You really don't understand my questions? You use literal interpretation sometimes, like on the Bahai scriptures, but not other times, like on the various Christian scriptures about things, such as, Jesus's second coming. That's correct. I do not understand your questions. I have no idea what you are talking about. In which specific instances have I used different methods of interpretation, and exactl;y what methods have I used in those instances? In other words, are you asking why Baha'is have a symbolic interpretation of "clouds" and a literal interpretation of "one thousand years"? You understood me when I first said that your excuses are not valid for deviating from the methods of interpretation you condone, validate, and use for your own Scriptures because your response was: "Who says?" So you know you deviate - now we have to see why your excuse is valid. I'm confused here. What are you talking about? Please answer my question. Who says my excuses are not valid? What is that person's name? After you tell me, we can discuss what authority that person has to decide if my excuses are valid or invalid. I was wondering what justifies you in switching, at will, between allegorical and literal I don't switch at will. I switch when clearly directed to do so by the doctrines of the Baha'i Faith. I want to know how they are divinely instructed How am I supposed to explain that to someone who refuses to consider even the possibility that Baha'i Scripture really is the Word of God?
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Berin, if you don't think you switch methods of interpretation between literal and allegory I don't think we can get past that. Thanks for responding.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:You really don't understand my questions? You use literal interpretation sometimes, like on the Bahai scriptures, but not other times, like on the various Christian scriptures about things, such as, Jesus's second coming. berin, With all due respect. I find your answers not really answers but a deep black hole that when someone enters... there is no light at the end, therefore, they back out and leave...
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Berin, if you don't think you switch methods of interpretation between literal and allegory I don't think we can get past that. Thanks for responding. (sigh) Why is this so difficult? Please answer the following question with the word "yes" or with the word "no": Are you asking why Baha'is have a symbolic interpretation of "clouds" and a literal interpretation of "one thousand years"?
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Amy Original500© Member  ...going with the flow...
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24HourNut wrote: berinwitness wrote:24HourNut wrote:I am asking about how dramatically changing a method of interpretation is AOK to do, especially just because of some goal you want to achieve in convincing whoever. You reject their literal interpretation of Jesus' Second Coming verses in the Bible yet now you use such a method of interpretation on Bahai scriptures. Hi Frank,  Basically.... The Bible tells us that 'the books are sealed til the time of the end'...meaning iov that the key to understanding scripture will be unveiled when Christ returns. Baha'i's believe that Baha'u'llah is Christ returned in the Glory of the Father, and that He has given us the key to unlocking scripture. Scripture is a combination of literal and symbolic. viewing it all one way or the other is a mistake. "The Kitáb-i-Íqán unsealed the heavenly Books of the past. Like the morning sun which brightens the eye, it illumined the hearts and imparted knowledge and understanding to the minds." (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 4, p. 154) Here is a link to this book. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html I've listed this before, but seems appropriate again. If it is a parable it is usually a metaphor. The Gospels are full of parables. If it is a story of something the author could not have seen for himself, it is metaphoric. If it is the direct revelation of a vision or prophetic dream it is metaphoric. If it suggests something that is patently unreal, it is metaphor. If you can believe what it says it's literal, if you can't it is metaphor. As Christ says over and over when relating parables: "Let him who has eyes see, and him who has ears hear." These are not references to physical eyes and ears, but a call to us to use our spiritual faculties and insights to decipher a deeper meaning. When i was growing up, i remember hearing the stories of Christ returning in the sky on clouds. And i remember thinking even then, 'but that would be physically impossible'. So in this example, even as a child. I knew that clouds must be a metaphor for something else. I believe God works within the natural order of the universe. Of course God can do anything He desires to do. But an examination of history shows us that God's ways do not normally meet our expectations, and He more often than not, utilizes the natural universe as it's set up, and works within the bounds He has given us. And because of this, we are prone to missing out on amazing things occurring right under our noses, because we are looking to the sky, expecting literal fulfillment, when in reality, things are fulfilled perfectly but in ways we aren't expecting and as such go by for the most part unnoticed. Does any of that help?  Last edited on 12:21 am by Amy |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Berin, if you don't think you switch methods of interpretation between literal and allegory I don't think we can get past that. Thanks for responding. It's difficult because text-based systems suck for spreading stuff we all interpret differently about a magical invisible superbeing. No, that is not what I was asking. I asked what I asked, to be blunt.  I have seen JBF put forth many different verses and you (Bahais) took a position that it was supposed to be interpreted as allegory. That was how you made it fit with Bahai scripture. The Second Coming was the last group of verses I remember being put forth so I am mentioning those as an example. But then when I see you (Bahais) put forth your verses you act like it can't be allegorical the way you claim JBFs verses need to be, they are literal.  Someone has to decide when something was meant to be allegory and symbolic, or taken literally. Who decides that and how, and why is that method of interpretation not applied consistently between Bahai and Christian scriptures. 
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Hi Amy - thank you for that, but I hear that as you just decide what is allegory and what is literal based upon how you happen to feel. That seems extremely subjective and it makes for a great variety of possible, valid interpretations. I don't understand why we are supposed to take the Second Coming verses in the Bible as allegory. Just because some outside source (Bahai scripture) says so is not valid. Anyone can make an outside source and say "well, because our scriptures say so." That is a lame standard. I am looking for something the world can agree on as to why we are all supposed to interpret those verses as allegorical. Otherwise, there is no authority or universal legitimacy for humans to buy it. It gets right back to that archaic "cause we said so" dogma.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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