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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Someone has to decide when something was meant to be allegory and symbolic, or taken literally. Who decides that and how The leadership of the Baha'i Faith has made some choices about that, and I go along with what they say. why is that method of interpretation not applied consistently between Bahai and Christian scriptures. I don't really know why it is not consistent, but I tend to assume they know what they are doing.
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:berinwitness wrote:Are you asking why Baha'is have a symbolic interpretation of "clouds" and a literal interpretation of "one thousand years"? I indicated the types in my previous post and referenced the bunch JBF put forth regarding the Second Coming as an example. In general I notice many jump between allegory and literal when it suites their position. I don't see a standard method of interpretation being used. I was hoping to understand how you magically know when to switch and why everyone should accept that as something other than cherrypicking, but so far the only reasons you gave me where "the Christians tell me, etc." and you wanted to convince someone of something. Nevermind, really. 
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Amy Original500© Member  ...going with the flow...
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24HourNut wrote: Hi Amy - thank you for that, but I hear that as you just decide what is allegory and what is literal based upon how you happen to feel. That seems extremely subjective and it makes for a great variety of possible, valid interpretations. I don't understand why we are supposed to take the Second Coming verses in the Bible as allegory. Just because some outside source (Bahai scripture) says so is not valid. Anyone can make an outside source and say "well, because our scriptures say so." That is a lame standard. I am looking for something the world can agree on as to why we are all supposed to interpret those verses as allegorical. Otherwise, there is no authority or universal legitimacy for humans to buy it. It gets right back to that archaic "cause we said so" dogma. not exactly...but i don't expect you to agree with me...just trying to point out how we come to that conclusion. it's not because we say so...but rather because we believe Baha'u'llah is the Voice of God for this Day, and as such God says so. but i understand if a person does not first recognize Baha'u'llah as such, there is no reason to accept His guidance on the matter. But as Baha'i's we do believe this wholeheartedly. So when we read Baha'u'llah's words, we recognize the Voice of God in them, and God alone has the authority to instruct us in how to determine what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken symbolically. We are simply sharing what we have learned. And as always, you are free to accept or reject what we say. 
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Someone has to decide when something was meant to be allegory and symbolic, or taken literally. Who decides that and how OK, so you are using some subjective outside source to determine how the Bible should be interpreted. That's not valid. See my post to Amy as to why. Anyone can make up a system and then check it against the Bible and say, well, that part was meant to be allegorical because it has to be to fit with my new system over here.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Amy wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Hi Amy - thank you for that, but I hear that as you just decide what is allegory and what is literal based upon how you happen to feel. That seems extremely subjective and it makes for a great variety of possible, valid interpretations. I don't understand why we are supposed to take the Second Coming verses in the Bible as allegory. Just because some outside source (Bahai scripture) says so is not valid. Anyone can make an outside source and say "well, because our scriptures say so." That is a lame standard. I am looking for something the world can agree on as to why we are all supposed to interpret those verses as allegorical. Otherwise, there is no authority or universal legitimacy for humans to buy it. It gets right back to that archaic "cause we said so" dogma. Hi Amy, I feel that when an new view comes along, the burden of proof is on that new source claiming things past should be interpreted differently. Someone writing something down and claiming to be something is not evidence ... that just falls under the category of "well, I decided to believe X so now I know that Bible verses Y are allegorical." It would be indicated in the Bible that those verses should be allegorical and that Jesus was not going to arrive the way it is spelled out. THAT would be evidence.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: I was hoping to understand how you magically know when to switch and why everyone should accept that as something other than cherrypicking Certainly. No problem. Make a thorough study of the Baha'i Faith. That's where the answers are.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: I feel that when an new view comes along, the burden of proof is on that new source claiming things past should be interpreted differently. I agre. To find the proof, read Baha'i Scripture and the authoritative interpretation of that Scripture. It would be indicated in the Bible that those verses should be allegorical and that Jesus was not going to arrive the way it is spelled out. THAT would be evidence. Compare the Jewish and Christian views of Messianic prophecy. That will show you why some prophecies should not be interpreted literally.
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Amy Original500© Member ...going with the flow...
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24HourNut wrote: Amy wrote:24HourNut wrote:Hi Amy - thank you for that, but I hear that as you just decide what is allegory and what is literal based upon how you happen to feel. That seems extremely subjective and it makes for a great variety of possible, valid interpretations. I don't understand why we are supposed to take the Second Coming verses in the Bible as allegory. Just because some outside source (Bahai scripture) says so is not valid. Anyone can make an outside source and say "well, because our scriptures say so." That is a lame standard. I am looking for something the world can agree on as to why we are all supposed to interpret those verses as allegorical. Otherwise, there is no authority or universal legitimacy for humans to buy it. It gets right back to that archaic "cause we said so" dogma. It is indicated that Jesus did not tell us all He had to say...but some people  argue that that's not what He meant. We disagree..."16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (King James Bible, John) Those of us who are Baha'i's feel the burden of proof has been satisfied. In my case this proof was intensely investigated, but this proof is for each person to discover for themselves. What i say does not constitute proof for anyone other than myself. "In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 246) The proof of a prophet lies in His life, His teachings and His character. If one chooses to truly investigate, the proof is available. If one chooses not to, no amount of proof offered will suffice to convince them. In this day, if Baha'u'llah is who He claimed to be...we do not have the priviledge of meeting Him face to face, but through the study of His life, the teachings He left, and the Word once again made manifest through His writings, we have the opportunity to recognize Him, if we truly open ourselves to the possibility. Free Will...the choice lies with each of us individually.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Jesus...above every other name
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Amy wrote:
Judas (not Iscariot) said something to Jesus Amy that might you think twice about the Holy Spirit. Judas asked Jesus this question: "Lord, how is it that You will manifest (reveal) yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus said this response to Judas, "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you." Then Jesus said to Judas, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit of promise, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." *************************************************************** So I have a question Amy.  If Judas asked Jesus how He would reveal Himself to Him and Jesus said that the Helper will come and teach him all things, how could Judas wait for Baha'u'llah 1800+ years later to teach him all things and unlock the scripture and manifest Christ to him????????? Last edited on 05:31 am by JustifiedByFaith Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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berinwitness wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Someone has to decide when something was meant to be allegory and symbolic, or taken literally. Who decides that and how Is it not VERY important to test all things and find out why it is not consistant? Does that not concern you in any way?
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Is it not VERY important to test all things and find out why it is not consistant? Does that not concern you in any way? What do you mean? Are you telling me that Frank disagreeing with me is proof that the Baha'i Faith is a false religion? Yes, all things should be tested. That's why Frank should read Baha'i Scripture. Does Baha'u'llah have a problem with different methods of interpretation in certain situations? If He doesn't, I don't either.
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Comfortably Uncomfortable Original500© Member 
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I feel that the only ways to resolve this argument are two fold, not necessarily in order of numbers. One is to agree to disagree. Making the same points back and forth multiple times is not going to further convince someone the truth of one's claims. It is not like filling up a glass, and the more one says something, the more the water reaches to the top of the glass and there is finally acceptance of the truth of what one is saying. Two is to read and study Christianity and the Baha'i Faith independently from each other, and using primarily self-sources for each religion to have a more emphatic view of the religion with which one is studying. If one picks up a book on Christianity, entitled "Why Christianity is wrong", then that does not reflect what billions of Christians worldwide think and believe. Likewise, if one picks up a book on the Baha'i Faith, entitled "Deceivers and Liars: How Baha'u'llah is the Wolf in Sheep's Cloth", then that also does not reflect what millions of Baha'is worldwide think and believe. The more one reads, ponders, and studies a religion with the viewpoint of what Religion says about ITSELF, the more respectable one becomes even if they don't agree and accept all of the claims of said religions. By merely knowing what It says about Itself, the person has already done their minds and hearts a great service in gaining knowledge, which will translate into better communication with their fellows. Anyway, just thought I'd jump in for a moment. peace be with you,
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Wow, I think I had too much coffee yesterday. Sometimes it does that to me, heh. Sorry. OK, back on topic. Are there Bahai sects? I think my point was that, for example, before there was the Bahai religion, what would have been considered the obvious meaning of those Second Coming verses in the Bible? Berin wrote, from a verse: "Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning" Well, what makes those Bahai sects not be able to claim what the obvious meaning is when the Bahais can come along and do that to the Christian verses?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Berin wrote, from a verse: The other groups do not have any official authority. The succession of leadership in the Baha'i Faith is set forward in writing. None of the claimants after 1957 have a written statement from Shoghi Effendi appointing them as Guardian. There have been only two people authorized to have their interpretations of Baha'i Scripture accepted as doctrine. Both of them are dead, and no individual or elected council now has the authority to choose a third person to that position.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Yes, well according to different people, they do and don't have authority. The Bahais have no authority over deciding how Christain scriptures should be interpreted, yet they decided the ones about Jesus' Second Coming are to be handled as allegory. I don't see why the Bahai sects can't claim authority in a similar way. Everyone is interpreting things as they like, across the board, in all religions and sects - all with the same level of authority since there is no way of confirming it with God - that is part of the reason why these text-based systems are poor.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > so there are Bahai sects? or not? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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