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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > Are Roman Catholics and Protestants Christians? |
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Impedimentus Original500© Member  Terricolous Creature
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This post is not politically correct and it will likely offend many - I'm sorry, but political correctness is no excuse for falsifying history. There is a strong argument to be made that the schismatic Roman Catholic Church is heretical. Since Protestant Churches are in one way or another derivatives of the Roman Church, they likewise are heretical. Heretical groups cannot be Christian, and if an ecumenical council were to declare the Roman Church heretical, it would most certainly declare that any churches derived through detachment from the Roman Church or derivatives of the Roman Church, are heretical. While there is sympathy among many in the Church for the plight of Protestants (removed from the True Church of Christ by historical and geographical accident), they can lay no claim to legitimacy. Claiming legitimacy through belief in the Bible is nonsensical because the Bible is a product of the True Church, defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils – this is historical fact and no Bible-quoting arguments can change this fact. In his essay, "Attributes of the Church" (Orthodox Life, Vol. XXXI, No. 1 [Jan.-Feb. 1981], p. 29), the Blessed Archimandrite Justin (Popovich) writes: From time to time, heretics and schismatics have cut themselves off and have fallen away from the One and indivisible Church of Christ, whereby they ceased to be members of the Church and parts of Her Theanthropic Body. The first to fall away thus were the Gnostics, then the Arians, then the Macedonians, then the Monophysites, then the Iconoclasts, then the Roman Catholics, then the Protestants, then the Uniates, and so on—all the members of the legion of heretics and schismatics. Catholic and Protestant heresy: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/prot_rc_heresy.aspx heresy: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/heresy.aspx I'm off to the desert to wrestle demons.  Last edited on 09:21 pm by Impedimentus |
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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Impedimentus wrote: This post is not politically correct Who cares? My religious beliefs are not defined by the modern-day philosophy called "political correctness". Can you prove to the satisfaction of all of us non-Orthodox that Jesus agrees with you? the Bible is a product of the True Church, defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils The Bible is either the Word of God or it is not. If it is, then it's authority stands above that of the Councils and above the entire Church. Unless you can show me a direct quote from Jesus Christ stating that I am to believe the choices made by the Seven Ecumenical Councils, about what should be included in the Biblical Canon and what should be excluded, are protected from error I see no reason why I should take your word for it. berinwitness, former Protestant
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Impedimentus Original500© Member Terricolous Creature
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berinwitness wrote: I see no reason why I should take your word for it. My word has nothing to do with historical fact and nothing to do with what is or isn't Christian - Church tradition and Church history does. You are making up your own conditions and conclusions based on nothing that has anything to do with historical Christianity, but rather on one of the more common excuses used by Protestants to justify their separation from the Roman Church and trying to legitimize themselves through "Bible quoting". Your point of view is heretical and not Christian. You warp and deny history. The Councils determined what was in the canonical Bible. If you deny the Councils you deny the Church and hench you deny the very Bible you use to justify your position.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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Because the vast majority of the "Christian" posts to this thread are made by members of schismatic and heretical groups, groups that are not members of the True Church of Christ, this entire thread is a misnomer. Let's call your new thread here:  "The official Imp vs Baha'i & everyone else who doesn't grow a long beard."
 Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Impedimentus Original500© Member Terricolous Creature
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It should also be pointed out that the Councils did not so much say what books are canonical, but rather which ones are not.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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Impedimentus wrote: nothing to do with what is or isn't Christian - Church tradition and Church history does. What evidence can you present that it is Church tradition and Church history that decides who is, and is not, a Christian? You are making up your own conditions and conclusions Okay. Now let's see if you can convince me that Jesus Christ agrees with you that my conditions and conclusions are wrong. Your point of view is heretical and not Christian. Who says? Who has the authority to tell me what I must believe? The Councils determined what was in the canonical Bible. If you deny the Councils you deny the Church and hench you deny the very Bible you use to justify your position. From where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit guided the Councils' choices and protected them from making mistakes? If by "Church" you mean Eastern Orthodoxy, of course I deny that. I come from a Protestant background. Why would I agree that Jesus wants me to be Orthodox? I reject the idea that the Bible is God's Word ONLY because the Seven Ecumenical Councils included certain documents in the Canon of Scripture. Therefore, denying the Church's claim to have authority over every detail of my beliefs does not mean I am denying the Bible.
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Impedimentus Original500© Member Terricolous Creature
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berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote:nothing to do with what is or isn't Christian - Church tradition and Church history does. You sound like you are arguing with a Roman Catholic theologian.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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Impedimentus wrote: You sound like you are arguing with a Roman Catholic theologian. I ask you for rock-solid evidence and this is all you have to say?
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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This is going to be an interesting thread.... Basically, the question is: Fact: The Bible was "assembled and approved" in it's curent form by those Councils of men, presumably via spiritual guidance from God; thusly, the Bible as we know it is spiritually, if not literally factually, accurate and is the Word of God as intended by God for that time in history. God didn't cause (much as JBF would like it and believe it) a Divinely Authorised copy of the Bible to plop down on top of a mountain with a flash and a bang and clouds of incense-flavored smoke! Fact: Many splits occured in Christianity AFTER those Councils approved the Bible. 99.9999% of Christian churches, sects, and what-have-you ALL were formed AFTER the approval/assembly process was completed. Fact: 99% of Christian churches today claim their relevance and accuracy as an "official" church/group/religion/sect/individual beliefs to be based on the Bible from a point in time at which the Bible as we know it today was "complete" Fact: God is one of two minds about all these various groups and varying interpretations and perceptions of the meaning of His Bible: Option 1. God has a VERY RIGID mindset about what He meant in the Bible and only ONE of the 35,000 different Churches or "interpretations by some group" is accurate in God's eyes, and ONLY that one group is going to be in Heaven. Heck, it could even be that the ONE group who correctly interpreted the Bible to God's satisfaction was composed of only 200 early Christians, and from that time onward EVERY SINGLE WALKIN" TALKIN" Christian, church, group, or religion has FAILED to interpret and understand the Bible to God's satisfaction and approval, and EVERYONE but that group of 200 "right" people in 89AD is going DIRECTLY to hell after they die. and NOBODY but those 200 people are going to be happy when they see Jesus, because He'll be waving his finger back and forth and tapping his toe at ALL of the Christians who weren't in that group of 200 who "got it right" This of course, gives GREAT happiness to those people who have to feel like THEY are right, and everyone else is wrong. Option 2. God is FAR more merciful and God will allow MANY different churches-groups-religions each having widely different "flavors" of methods and widely differing interpretations of the Bible to be "in" Heaven, even if most of those groups DO think that the other group singing hymns in the building across the street is composed of nothing but Satan's personal little helpers, much less any other religions or single followers. This of course, makes all the Baptists and other fundies out there just rant and stamp in frustration, thinking that God MIGHT just accept <shudder> the Catholics, the Methodists, those darn liberal Episcopalians and the various other heathern gay-minister denominations that are serving Satan from within the church. AND <double shudder> God might even take in people like the Baha'is!! Yup... Gonna be a good thread watching Imp be logical and JBF struggle with that...
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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sirlamre wrote:
I have survived and endured 137 pages of re-interpretations, bible twisting, adding and taking away from God's word with you and your friends sirlamre so Imp's logicial side will not be a struggle for me... 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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sirlamre wrote: This is going to be an interesting thread.... It sure is. By the way, how do you feel being a member of a Heretical group? Surely Imp isn't considering the Baha'i faith to be non-heretical is he? 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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JustifiedByFaith wrote:
Weeelllll.. you raise an interesting point.... First, let me say that I agree with Imp- To me, there IS a "valid" Christian church with long-historically based apostolic roots, and there are many churches which are NOT valid- and I'm not talking only about the misguided ones like Warren Jeffs and so on. There are huge churches out there that CANNOT trace their lineage back through long-historically acecpted apostolic methods. Many "modern" churches are NOT recent creations bearing no connection to the Church of ancient lineage. I consider most American denominations to be 'invalid' in that sense. However, I don't care what God thinks in the end, and I'm not being judgemental either-- just stating that I think there IS a legitimate way to be a Christian church with an ancient lineage, and there's ways to NOT be a Church. Just getting out of your pickup truck in front of your house after work one Friday afternoon and deciding you want to form a church of your own is NOT one of the ways to be "official" in Gods eyes, IMHO. However, as to the heretical part: here's the way Baha'is (mostly) view that: Baha'u'llah claimed to be and proved (to Baha'is) that He was the Return of Christ. (don't argue with me on that here-- we have a whole other thread for that ;-) ) Based on that, Imp cannot really claim that we are heretics to Christ; The Pope and all other leaders/ministers of Churches that cannot trace their authority over their congregation in an unbroken line of people back to the times of Christ are MUCH more easily proven to have broken the apostolic chain, or so it would appear to me anyhow. Because NONE of them claimed to BE the Return of Christ Himself, none of them can claim to be able to step outside the chain of offical apostolic lineage and heritage. Baha'u'llah NEEDS no such apostolic lineage or heritage -- He is the Divine Spirit returned to earth to speak unto men (again, see the other thread to disagree with this) --- that TOTALLY trumps the Pope or any common everyday drill-press operator-turned-minister-on-Sundays. I'm not an authority here however-- I'd love to see Construct's comments (if they didn't make my brain hurt) to Imp on the matter.
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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Impedimentus Original500© Member Terricolous Creature
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Lets get one thing straight - going to heaven or hell or being judged after death is a different question than that of belonging to the True Church of Christ. I am not and the Church is not making that judgement - God makes that call. As for religious groups that don't claim to be Christian, heresy is not an issue. We are talking about the canonical, historical Christian Church. Nobody is saying that being a heretic or belonging to another belief rates eternal damnation. Condemnation by the Church (separation from the Church) is reserved in general for those who reject the Church with full knowledge of what they are doing - but that isn't eternal damnation - it's separation. So lets cut the "going to hell nonsense" - that is God's call. As for the Bible quoters, they have nothing to base their faith on but the Bible and the Bible is not The Church, the Bible is a canonical product of the Church. Christ never said "my Bible", he said "my Church". How arrogant to come along 1000 or 1500 or 2000 years later in history and say "I know better, I am right, the Church is wrong, 2000 years of history and tradition are wrong", how arrogant!
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Impedimentus wrote: Lets get one thing straight - going to heaven or hell or being judged after death is a different question than that of belonging to the True Church of Christ. I am not and the Church is not making that judgement - God makes that call. As for religious groups that don't claim to be Christian, heresy is not an issue. We are talking about the canonical, historical Christian Church. Nobody is saying that being a heretic or belonging to another belief rates eternal damnation. Condemnation by the Church (separation from the Church) is reserved in general for those who reject the Church with full knowledge of what they are doing - but that isn't eternal damnation - it's separation. So lets cut the "going to hell nonsense" - that is God's call. OK -- you're certainly correct that the Church is not in the business of judging salvation (or at least shouldn't be, even if the Papal church has done so in the past) however-- in your opinion, if a Christian decides to accept the canonical product known as the Bible, and yet NOT attend one of the true Apostolic Christian Church, how can they then be accurately interpreting the Bible? (eg, a church with true historical roots, not one that some minister somewhere just decides to start up and SAY is true to the apostolic roots) I would assume that the Church has based it's existence upon a given interpretation of Bible verses-- an interpretation that isn't subject to variance IF there is indeed to be only ONE Church and not Biblical basis for 45,000 different churches... I think it likely that there is only ONE church, not many churches all with slightly different beliefs. After all, as JBF is fond of saying, the Bible only says ONE truth, not many truths. So -- even if we're not talking about what God makes of it--- as I understand your question -- it's sort of this: How IS it possible for a Christian to CORRECTLY interpret and believe in the Bible and yet NOT find a requirement for attending THE only apostolic and succession-unbroken Church of Christ? Isn't that the root of your question? Seems to me that (if) the Bible has the basis the Apostolic Churches say it does for their authenticity and singular authority , then there is ALSO a mandate to any True Christian who correctly interprets the Bible to ATTEND that selfsame Church and that a True Christian would avoid a church that does not meet the criteria laid forth in the Bible, right??? Last edited on 05:52 am by sirlamre Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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Impedimentus wrote: So lets cut the "going to hell nonsense" - that is God's call. That's nice to see you have changed your ways recently. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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