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JustifiedByFaith
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Posted: 06:45 am |
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sirlamre wrote: Impedimentus wrote: Lets get one thing straight - going to heaven or hell or being judged after death is a different question than that of belonging to the True Church of Christ. I am not and the Church is not making that judgement - God makes that call. As for religious groups that don't claim to be Christian, heresy is not an issue. We are talking about the canonical, historical Christian Church. Nobody is saying that being a heretic or belonging to another belief rates eternal damnation. Condemnation by the Church (separation from the Church) is reserved in general for those who reject the Church with full knowledge of what they are doing - but that isn't eternal damnation - it's separation. So lets cut the "going to hell nonsense" - that is God's call.
As for the Bible quoters, they have nothing to base their faith on but the Bible and the Bible is not The Church, the Bible is a canonical product of the Church. Christ never said "my Bible", he said "my Church". How arrogant to come along 1000 or 1500 or 2000 years later in history and say "I know better, I am right, the Church is wrong, 2000 years of history and tradition are wrong", how arrogant!
OK -- you're certainly correct that the Church is not in the business of judging salvation (or at least shouldn't be, even if the Papal church has done so in the past)
however-- in your opinion, if a Christian decides to accept the canonical product known as the Bible, and yet NOT attend one of the true Apostolic Christian Church, how can they then be accurately interpreting the Bible?
(eg, a church with true historical roots, not one that some minister somewhere just decides to start up and SAY is true to the apostolic roots)
I would assume that the Church has based it's existence upon a given interpretation of Bible verses-- an interpretation that isn't subject to variance IF there is indeed to be only ONE Church and not Biblical basis for 45,000 different churches... I think it likely that there is only ONE church, not many churches all with slightly different beliefs.
After all, as JBF is fond of saying, the Bible only says ONE truth, not many truths.
So -- even if we're not talking about what God makes of it--- as I understand your question -- it's sort of this:
How IS it possible for a Christian to CORRECTLY interpret and believe in the Bible and yet NOT find a requirement for attending THE only apostolic and succession-unbroken Church of Christ?
Isn't that the root of your question?
Seems to me that (if) the Bible has the basis the Apostolic Churches say it does for their authenticity and singular authority , then there is ALSO a mandate to any True Christian who correctly interprets the Bible to ATTEND that selfsame Church and that a True Christian would avoid a church that does not meet the criteria laid forth in the Bible, right???
 Give it up sirlamre for awhile....
Maybe Imp needs to listen too Baha'u'llah for the true interpretation of the bible huh?
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."
Matthew 24:4
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Impedimentus
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Posted: 03:30 pm |
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sirlamre wrote:
Seems to me that (if) the Bible has the basis the Apostolic Churches say it does for their authenticity and singular authority , then there is ALSO a mandate to any True Christian who correctly interprets the Bible to ATTEND that selfsame Church and that a True Christian would avoid a church that does not meet the criteria laid forth in the Bible, right???
The problem continues to be this false and heretical belief that the Bible is the foundation of Christianity. The Church of Christ, through Jesus Christ, is the foundation. One CANNOT be a true Christian and reject the Church. The Church is the living body of Christ on earth - if one doesn't accept this one is not Christian. The Bible, tradition, the teachings of the Church Fathers, the Nicene Crede (which is also canonical), the Holy Mysteries (the sacraments to the Romans) and more make up the Church and the foundation of Christian life.
The Western Church and particularly the derivatives of that church, through historical circumstances and geographical separation, have not experienced the depth, mystery, tradition and full spiritual life of the Church. Born in this wasteland of separation from the Church are thousands of hereseys, most of which use the Bible as the primary or sole foundation of their beliefs. This is no different than some group saying baptism is THE foundation of the church, or the Nicene Crede, or apostolic succession ALONE. With nothing to cling to but the Bible one can easily see the spiritual void and emptiness that these groups exist in. I will not get involved in these Bible-centered arguments because they are false arguments - they have no more validity than "baptism-only-centered" justifications for the existence of a faith group. Watching all of these "the Bible says this" vs. the "Bible says that" arguments, a Christian can only shake his head - what silliness. The ultimate interpretation of Holy Scripture resides with the Church, the same institution that gave us the Bible.
I have empathy for my Protestant friends, their churches came into existence as a reaction to the grave excesses of the schismatic Roman Church; they had no exposure to the True Church. There is no sin there, only an understandable and sad ignorance.
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JustifiedByFaith
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Posted: 03:58 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: sirlamre wrote:
Seems to me that (if) the Bible has the basis the Apostolic Churches say it does for their authenticity and singular authority , then there is ALSO a mandate to any True Christian who correctly interprets the Bible to ATTEND that selfsame Church and that a True Christian would avoid a church that does not meet the criteria laid forth in the Bible, right???
The Church is the living body of Christ on earth - if one doesn't accept this one is not Christian. The Bible, tradition, the teachings of the Church Fathers, the Nicene Crede (which is also canonical), the Holy Mysteries (the sacraments to the Romans) and more make up the Church and the foundation of Christian life.
I will agree with this in part. But the "blanket coverage" label of negativity you place over the efforts of the Reformation and it's Protestant outcome is less than appealing. I see some good logic in your arguments and a sense of legalism in other areas.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14
“These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (understood).”
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."
Matthew 24:4
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berinwitness
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Posted: 04:06 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: false and heretical belief that the Bible is the foundation of Christianity. The Church of Christ, through Jesus Christ, is the foundation.
Who says? Jesus Christ? Or someone else? If it's someone else, what is that person's authority over my religious beliefs?
One CANNOT be a true Christian and reject the Church.
Let's assume for a moment this is true. How can the rest of us know it's membership in the Orthodox Church, to the exclusion of all other denominations, that determines who is a true Christian?
The Church is the living body of Christ on earth - if one doesn't accept this one is not Christian. The Bible, tradition, the teachings of the Church Fathers, the Nicene Crede (which is also canonical), the Holy Mysteries (the sacraments to the Romans) and more make up the Church and the foundation of Christian life.
At what point, historically, did this become true? During Gospel times was it enough to follow Jesus as Lord? If so, when did acceptance of tradition and the teachings of the Church Fathers become necessary? And if it was NOT enough in Gospel times what else was required?
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Impedimentus
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Posted: 04:29 pm |
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berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: false and heretical belief that the Bible is the foundation of Christianity. The Church of Christ, through Jesus Christ, is the foundation.
Who says? Jesus Christ? Or someone else? If it's someone else, what is that person's authority over my religious beliefs?
One CANNOT be a true Christian and reject the Church.
Let's assume for a moment this is true. How can the rest of us know it's membership in the Orthodox Church, to the exclusion of all other denominations, that determines who is a true Christian?
The Church is the living body of Christ on earth - if one doesn't accept this one is not Christian. The Bible, tradition, the teachings of the Church Fathers, the Nicene Crede (which is also canonical), the Holy Mysteries (the sacraments to the Romans) and more make up the Church and the foundation of Christian life.
At what point, historically, did this become true? During Gospel times was it enough to follow Jesus as Lord? If so, when did acceptance of tradition and the teachings of the Church Fathers become necessary? And if it was NOT enough in Gospel times what else was required?
A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions. You seem to be rather rabid and angry - not the traits of the Bahai's I know. Are you sure you are not some radical fundamentalist bible-thumping heretical "christian" in disguise? Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
Be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity.
Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech.
Be a lamp unto those who walk in darkness, and a home
to the stranger.
Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring.
Be a breath of life to the body of humankind, a dew upon the soil of the human heart,
and a fruit upon the tree of humility.
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berinwitness
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Posted: 04:36 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions.
Really? Does EVERYONE who spends a few hours reading history convert to Orthodoxy?
Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
That bears a startling similarity to all the other responses I get from people who claim my religious beliefs are false.
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Impedimentus
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Posted: 04:49 pm |
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berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions.
Really? Does EVERYONE who spends a few hours reading history convert to Orthodoxy?
Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
That bears a startling similarity to all the other responses I get from people who claim my religious beliefs are false.
I'm not trying to convert anyone to ANYTHING!
I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Geez, you might want to look into getting over your hyper-defensiveness - go out and smell the flowers, enjoy the sunshine  .
Last edited on 05:08 pm by Impedimentus
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JustifiedByFaith
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Posted: 05:13 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions.
Really? Does EVERYONE who spends a few hours reading history convert to Orthodoxy?
Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
That bears a startling similarity to all the other responses I get from people who claim my religious beliefs are false.
I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Why not Imp? You are quick to attack Christians that don't meet your Orthodoxy? Are you not bold in the faith? Does Baha'i meet your standards of Orthodoxy?
“ I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."
Matthew 24:4
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Impedimentus
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Posted: 05:16 pm |
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Impedimentus wrote: berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions.
Really? Does EVERYONE who spends a few hours reading history convert to Orthodoxy?
Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
That bears a startling similarity to all the other responses I get from people who claim my religious beliefs are false.
I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Why not Imp? You are quick to attack Christians that don't meet your Orthodoxy? Are you not bold in the faith? Does Baha'i meet your standards of Orthodoxy?
“ I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4
I'm not trying to convert anyone to ANYTHING!
I'm only saying that you are not a Christian!
Geez, you might want to look into getting over your hyper-defensiveness - go out and smell the flowers, enjoy the sunshine .
Last edited on 05:19 pm by Impedimentus
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berinwitness
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Posted: 05:21 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Oh, okay. I guess I misunderstood the meaning of "heretical" and "no claim to legitimacy".
There is a strong argument to be made that the schismatic Roman Catholic Church is heretical. Since Protestant Churches are in one way or another derivatives of the Roman Church, they likewise are heretical. Heretical groups cannot be Christian, and if an ecumenical council were to declare the Roman Church heretical, it would most certainly declare that any churches derived through detachment from the Roman Church or derivatives of the Roman Church, are heretical. While there is sympathy among many in the Church for the plight of Protestants (removed from the True Church of Christ by historical and geographical accident), they can lay no claim to legitimacy.
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JustifiedByFaith
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Posted: 05:22 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote: Impedimentus wrote: berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions.
Really? Does EVERYONE who spends a few hours reading history convert to Orthodoxy?
Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
That bears a startling similarity to all the other responses I get from people who claim my religious beliefs are false.
I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Why not Imp? You are quick to attack Christians that don't meet your Orthodoxy? Are you not bold in the faith? Does Baha'i meet your standards of Orthodoxy?
“ I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4
I'm not trying to convert anyone to ANYTHING!
I'm only saying that you are not a Christian!
Amazing.
NounS: (n) pharisee (a self-righteous or sanctimonious person) Last edited on 05:23 pm by JustifiedByFaith
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."
Matthew 24:4
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Impedimentus
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Posted: 05:23 pm |
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berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Oh, okay. I guess I misunderstood the meaning of "heretical" and "no claim to legitimacy".
There is a strong argument to be made that the schismatic Roman Catholic Church is heretical. Since Protestant Churches are in one way or another derivatives of the Roman Church, they likewise are heretical. Heretical groups cannot be Christian, and if an ecumenical council were to declare the Roman Church heretical, it would most certainly declare that any churches derived through detachment from the Roman Church or derivatives of the Roman Church, are heretical. While there is sympathy among many in the Church for the plight of Protestants (removed from the True Church of Christ by historical and geographical accident), they can lay no claim to legitimacy.
Do you claim to be Christian?
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Impedimentus
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Posted: 05:29 pm |
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Impedimentus wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote: Impedimentus wrote: berinwitness wrote: Impedimentus wrote: A few hours of your time reading history would answer all of your questions.
Really? Does EVERYONE who spends a few hours reading history convert to Orthodoxy?
Sorry, but I have no time to teach history to the ignorant.
That bears a startling similarity to all the other responses I get from people who claim my religious beliefs are false.
I'm not claiming your religious beliefs are false!
Why not Imp? You are quick to attack Christians that don't meet your Orthodoxy? Are you not bold in the faith? Does Baha'i meet your standards of Orthodoxy?
“ I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4
I'm not trying to convert anyone to ANYTHING!
I'm only saying that you are not a Christian!
Amazing.
NounS: (n) pharisee (a self-righteous or sanctimonious person)
So JBF, you are a pharisee - that explains a lot.
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berinwitness
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Posted: 05:31 pm |
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Impedimentus wrote: Do you claim to be Christian?
1. No. I openly deny it.
2. Even attending a Protestant Sunday-school as a child, it is a certainty I never met the real standards of being a follower of Jesus Christ.
But the point I'm trying to make here is - who decides who is, and is not, a Christian?
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JustifiedByFaith
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Posted: 05:32 pm |
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