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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > Whether and how gay church members pictures should appear in a pictorial church directory |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7   |
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
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pmh1nic wrote:If the leadership in the churhc has moral clarity on an issue (that it is sin) acting in good faith and in the best interest of all of its members would not be doing things that condone or promote that sin. That's pretty much what I was thinking, either you are for a moral issue as a church or you are against it. But I tend to be too black and white. If moral clarity does not exist then my sense would be to err on the side of conservatism since if clarity arrives it is easier to let the genie out of the bottle then to get him back in. If a religion doesn't have moral clarity, how are people supposed to find it at all? But I agree, if you can't decide whether it's wrong or right, give people a break. Last edited on 10:26 pm by Saint  A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Saint wrote: If a religion doesn't have moral clarity, how are people supposed to find it at all? Hi Saint! But isn't it true that morality is relative depending upon which time period and location you are in? That the structure of the society you happen to be in is what determines what is moral or immoral? Is this not why the Old Testament had different values, deemed immoral by today's standards. Is this not way some thins are considered very moral in one Country and not another? From one century in the same location, but not another? It seems that morals change depending upon time and place, and even within religious organizations. How do you feel about that?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member Polymath
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24HourNut wrote:Saint wrote:If a religion doesn't have moral clarity, how are people supposed to find it at all? |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Thanks for clearing that up Saint, I hear where you are coming from.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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"If moral clarity does not exist then my sense would be to err on the side of conservatism since if clarity arrives it is easier to let the genie out of the bottle then to get him back in." At times there may be issues where moral clarity doesn't exist (deciding under what conditions if any is it appropriate to got to war). I don't think the issue of homosexuality itself is obscure with respect to whether it is sin. Deciding what action or inaction by a church might constituting promoting or condoning homosexuality might require prayer and consideration to make that decision and it may not be a unanimous decision.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: I don't think the issue of homosexuality itself is obscure with respect to whether it is sin. That's a matter of interpretation and how much you want to weigh in the likelihood of text manipulation, addition, or omission.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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pmh1nic wrote:"If moral clarity does not exist then my sense would be to err on the side of conservatism since if clarity arrives it is easier to let the genie out of the bottle then to get him back in." I can tell you for a fact that Broadway Baptist Church has not reached moral clarity on whether homosexuality or homosexual conduct is or is not sinful under various circumstances. A diversity of opinion exists among the members. "Promoting or condoning" are not at issue. "Approving, affirming, or endorsing" should be words that come up in their discussion because those words appear in Article I of the SBC bylaws. Baptist churches are governed from the bottom up, pmh1nic, or at least they're supposed to be if they are true to their tradition. Baptists are traditionally suspicious of ecclesiastical hierarchies. The vote of the membership is the action of the local church, and property is owned by the local church. When a Baptist church's affiliation is broken, the church house remains with the local church because the title is owned by the local church.
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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Here is a link to the Dallas Voice article that appeared before last Sunday's vote. It's not a bad article although it simplifies in ways that sound strange to Baptist ears. It includes a picture of me (since I was the only one who would talk to them). (The article also gives the conflict in the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth the once-over lightly.) http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/publish/article_7399.php
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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Construct "I can tell you for a fact that Broadway Baptist Church has not reached moral clarity on whether homosexuality or homosexual conduct is or is not sinful under various circumstances. A diversity of opinion exists among the members." My personal statement regarding moral clarity is my opinion on the issue of homosexuality. We've discussed this at length in the past so there is no need to rehash it again here. My point was more the general statement that when moral clarity doesn't exist on an issue we will err on the side of conservatism. "Baptist churches are governed from the bottom up, pmh1nic, or at least they're supposed to be if they are true to their tradition. Baptists are traditionally suspicious of ecclesiastical hierarchies. The vote of the membership is the action of the local church, and property is owned by the local church. When a Baptist church's affiliation is broken, the church house remains with the local church because the title is owned by the local church." There are probably advantages and disadvantages to either approach (bottom up or top down). In most cases we take a vote on major issues and we look for an approval rating in the 80% ~ 90% range before going forward with a proposal. If approval falls below that we would probably not go forward with a proposal.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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As the years and decades go on, stories like the one in this topic will be a more common occurrence I feel. Partially because so many more members in a given institution will have a greater awareness of the gay people in their families - that they themselves raised - and more education about it. So, that will be a growing source of conflict. This is similar to how as more and more White people got used to working with, living near, or going to school with Blacks ... socializing, dating, having sex with them became more comfortable. Churches stopped condoning slavery and issuing slave tags, too. Our society adapts as our ignorance fades about something as higher principles are embraced. Eventually interracial marriage was allowed, highlighting this process from ignorant and dogmatic to freedom and equality based.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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24HourNut wrote:As the years and decades go on, stories like the one in this topic will be a more common occurrence I feel. Partially because so many more members in a given institution will have a greater awareness of the gay people in their families - that they themselves raised - and more education about it. So, that will be a growing source of conflict. This is similar to how as more and more White people got used to working with, living near, or going to school with Blacks ... socializing, dating, having sex with them became more comfortable. Churches stopped condoning slavery and issuing slave tags, too. Our society adapts as our ignorance fades about something as higher principles are embraced. Eventually interracial marriage was allowed, highlighting this process from ignorant and dogmatic to freedom and equality based. I agree, or at least I hope you are right. And the way will be littered with decisions small and large--decisions for and against (and trying to avoid) the tide of change. Broadway has a history of moving slowly with the course of change. They were early in allowing women to serve as deacons and on staff. They were early in ministering to the needs of people with AIDS. They are early in dealing with specifically gay issues (early at least in the context of Baptist life in the South). The only question for them is how long they can continue to drag their feet, and the last thing they want to do is make waves. I'm sure seeing this played out in the media is excruciating for almost everyone in the church.
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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"Partially because so many more members in a given institution will have a greater awareness of the gay people in their families - that they themselves raised - and more education about it. So, that will be a growing source of conflict." I think you are confusing two issues: 1. If someone contracts AIDS the issue of caring for that person isn't a matter of HOW they contracted the diease, in the same way that you don't investigate the cause of a car accident before you administer medical help to the individuals injured in the accident. 2. That is a separate issue from what does or does not constitute sin from a Biblical perspective, in the same way that the Biblical perspective on sexual relationships outside of marriage (sin) is not conditioned on how many people in our society participate in sexual relationships outside of marriage. While the popular perspective on homosexuality may change (considered normal) or even if the mainline churches change their perspective (no longer sin) it won't change the fundamental Biblical truth regarding homosexuality as expressed in the Old and New Testament. Yes, I know, I know, based on my interpretation of the passages.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: "Partially because so many more members in a given institution will have a greater awareness of the gay people in their families - that they themselves raised - and more education about it. So, that will be a growing source of conflict." People are getting educated and learning not to put homosexuality in the same categories as you may. As for the Bible on homosexuality - I don't see why if so many things could be "just for that time" the view on homosexuality doesn't fit into that. The OT was tailored and custom packaged with values and morals suited for the archaic and superstitious idiots that listened to it. They were fearful and dumb enough to think that God issued rod-beating guidelines for slaves and wanted you to murder your infidel sister, mother, or son after you killed your disobedient kid or stoned a virgin. The NT is obviously outdated in many respects and so I don't see why the NT wouldn't be deemed more for the archaic time in which it was obviously written. It might be time to consider the book that thinks the world is a flat disc and wasn't even aware there were other continents as "outdated."
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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"People are getting educated and learning not to put homosexuality in the same categories as you may." Educated? Have the facts regarding the biological make-up of human beings changed? Has the complimentary nature that exist between men and women somehow been transferred to men with men or women with women?
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: "People are getting educated and learning not to put homosexuality in the same categories as you may." Yes, the view on gender-based sexuality has changed along with stoning virgins, selling your daughter, killing your non-believer family members, giving your slaves off for the Sabbath while carefully following the rod-beating guidelines, along with all the other antiquated concepts against modern freedom and equality. So yes, Pmh. Things have changed. People are better understanding their kids, family, friends, and so forth as being gay and what homosexuality really is, and not needing punishment for it on some level. Yes, Pmh - people are, more and more, learning to not hate or punish what is different when it harms them not. That is the objective standard of freedom and equality. If it doesn't harm you, like Blacks marrying whites, it's not something we need to go out of our way, like religious fanatics, to punish. Yes, Pmh. YES! The NT is obviously outdated in many respects and so I don't see why the NT wouldn't be deemed as being for the archaic time in which it was obviously written.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > Whether and how gay church members pictures should appear in a pictorial church directory | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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