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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > Increasing Anti-Christian Violence In India |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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We can't blame the Muslims on this one... but primarily militant Hindus in India. http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071127/30203_Anti-Christian_Persecution_in_India_Hits_New_High.htm http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/Current_Affairs/Current_affairs.html  Note: My Pastor/close friend has recently been invited to go to India and teach several men there who believe they have been called by God to go out and share the love, peace, hope and salvation in Jesus. This country is an incredible mission field for those who are willing to share the "Good News" to a people who need Christ more than ever!Last edited on 04:59 am by JustifiedByFaith  Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: We can't blame the Muslims on this one... but primarily militant Hindus in India. This is interesting stuff, JBF. I think it's also something of a cautionary tale for the U.S. When people advocate for the U.S. being "a Christian nation", they need to understand that this is where such a thing could lead. Never underestimate the law of unintended consequences. In a sectarian culture, this is the kind of thing that inevitably happens.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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Good point Brian, but I don't want to bring up that old hat again...do you? India, China, Pakistan, and over 50 countries in the world today consider it a crime to preach Jesus. This to me is sad. Jesus preached peace, hope, and forgiveness in a hopeless world. Not unwilling submission or face persecution & death. Last edited on 05:06 am by JustifiedByFaith Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Good point Brian, but I don't want to bring up that old hat again...do you? India, China, Pakistan, and over 50 countries in the world today consider it a crime to preach Jesus. This to me is sad. Jesus preached peace, hope, and forgiveness in a hopeless world. Not unwilling submission or face persecution & death. In Matthew, in the parable of the wedding feast, Jesus states pretty clearly that those who don't believe in him are screwed. Doesn't that sound a teensy bit coercive to you? And when the king came in to see the guests he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment and he saith unto him, "Friend how earnest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, :Bind him hand and foot and take him away and cast him into outer darkness there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called but few are chosen
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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Brian When some refer to the U.S. as a "Christian Nation" it doesn't necessarily convey the idea that everyone in the country is a Christian or must worship the God of the Bible. The concept of force conversion is TOTAL foreign to New Testament theology. In my opinion the Christian nation concept is a recognition of the religious heritage of the country and that in many respects our laws, society and government reflect Christian principles. Our laws regarding murder, stealing, lying and issues related to public morality have a basis in Christianity. At one time we had "Blue Laws" that required all business to be shut down on Sundays. The battle continues regarding how the underlaying principles of society should extended to public policy on the issues of abortion, homosexual unions, 2nd amendment rights, etc. The principles that guide our society and government are going to be based in some value system, some set of beliefs regarding morality and justice. Historically that value system was very closely tied to Christianity. If that value system is to be discarded it has to be replaced by something. What label you put on it is a secondary issue.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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pmh1nic wrote: Brian PMH: I think Christian theology has undergone some changes. Current Christian theology doesn't condone forced conversions (at least, that I can tell), but both Catholic and Protestant traditions have persecuted religious minorities in the past, so I do think there was at least perceived theological justification for it. And of course, you've got a certain nutjob strain that currently holds that various types of unbelievers (e.g., homosexuals, Jews) are deserving of the Undying Barbeque. In other words, I think all religions have their radical sides, and what "a Christian nation" means is very much a matter of whom you ask. (Let's not forget: The Klan and Neo-Nazis frequently cloak themselves in Christian trappings.) pmh1nic wrote: In my opinion the Christian nation concept is a recognition of the religious heritage of the country and that in many respects our laws, society and government reflect Christian principles. Our laws regarding murder, stealing, lying and issues related to public morality have a basis in Christianity. At one time we had "Blue Laws" that required all business to be shut down on Sundays. The battle continues regarding how the underlaying principles of society should extended to public policy on the issues of abortion, homosexual unions, 2nd amendment rights, etc. As I think we both agree, all laws have to be based on someone's morals. I woud argue, though, that laws against stealing, lying, and murder are more universal than Christianity. You really can't have a society unless you have laws against stealing, murder, and lying in court. These are more practical matters than they are theological. Blue laws are more the kinds of laws that I see as "religious". There's no practical reason why someone shouldn't be able to shop on Sunday. (In New Jersey, last time I checked, there were still laws like that on the books in some counties.) I'd also put into the same category the laws about having open containsers of alcohol outdoors. The thing is, it's really a matter of degrees. I know you're a well-intentioned, rational guy, but others carrying the "Christian nation" banner are interested in a lot more restrictive version of America. (The Rev. Phelps springs to mind...)
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Good point Brian, but I don't want to bring up that old hat again...do you? India, China, Pakistan, and over 50 countries in the world today consider it a crime to preach Jesus. This to me is sad. Jesus preached peace, hope, and forgiveness in a hopeless world. Not unwilling submission or face persecution & death. You evidently don't read very well, JBF. From the very article that YOU posted: "The evidence to the contrary is ample. The Constitution of India (1950) recognizes the right to freedom of religious worship, and the Constituent Assembly, which drafted the Indian Constitution, recognized further that people have the right to "propagate religion". More importantly, the Census of India, which remains the most authoritative source for population statistics, clearly shows that the Christian community has stagnated and even registered a small decline in recent years. In an article published by Rajendra K. Chaddha in the magazine Organiser (31 October 1999), which is the mouthpiece for the BJP, the Hindu nationalist party that has been governing India since March 1998, it was claimed that the Christian population had grown from 2.53% of the total population of India in 1981 to 2.61% of the total population. However, the Census of India tells a different, and obviously more reliable, story. While the rate of growth of the Christian population was higher than that of the population as a whole between 1921 and 1971, the gap narrowed and was eventually reversed. Thus, between 1981 and 1991, Christians declined from 2.45% to 2.32% of the entire population. " I have bolded and underlined the words that DIRECTLY contradict your incorrect statement that "India, China, Pakistan, and over 50 countries in the world today consider it a crime to preach Jesus" That may or may not be true in the other countries you list-- But you are VERY wrong about it being 'illegal in India' It might not be well received by some segments of the population, but per the Indian Constitution itself, it is NOT "illegal" as you attempt to claim.
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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Brian "I think Christian theology has undergone some changes. Current Christian theology doesn't condone forced conversions (at least, that I can tell), but both Catholic and Protestant traditions have persecuted religious minorities in the past, so I do think there was at least perceived theological justification for it." There may have been some perceived theological justification for it but if there was it stood on very shake ground, especially as far as the New Testament is concerned. "And of course, you've got a certain nutjob strain that currently holds that various types of unbelievers (e.g., homosexuals, Jews) are deserving of the Undying Barbeque." The "Barbeque" (eternal judgement) as you call it was a central topic of the preaching of Jesus. The criteria for entering the judgement was the refusal to acknowledge sin and the rejection of His death and resurrection as price of redemption. And while I accept the idea that there may be some situations due to our personal spiritual blindness (mine include) we may not acknowledge certain behavior as sin there may be situations where we choice blindness for convenience sake rather then acknowledge our sin. "In other words, I think all religions have their radical sides" Agreed. "and what "a Christian nation" means is very much a matter of whom you ask." Agreed. I think you would get a FAR different answer from the average citizen in Colonial America or even fifty years ago then you would get today. "I woud argue, though, that laws against stealing, lying, and murder are more universal than Christianity." They are in fact more universal BUT given the religious heritage in THIS country they would be Biblically based. "Blue laws are more the kinds of laws that I see as "religious"." Agreed. I also think the laws that existed regarding adultery, homosexuality, pornography, etc., cultural norms with respect to dress and appropriate language, down to the having a minister say a prayer before sessions of Congress, Biblical inscriptions on government buildings are also and indication that at one time we were self-identified as a Christian nation and identified as such by visitors to the country that found tens of thousands of "church buildings" dotting every city, town and rural community. I guess it comes down to how this nation is going to be characterized in the future. If not a Christian nation then what?
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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I think there were more unChristian principles at the root of our revolutionary and radical Founding than there were Christian ones, especially if you consider what most Christians condoned or engaged in at the time of the Founding (slavery, racism, taxing and jailing religious minorities, etc.). Plenty of things in that culture the Founders took odds with. How else can you be a revolutionary radical if you aren't against the grain of the mob and in contrast with the culture in some ways? I think many of the values in the Constitution are universal values found outside of the Bible, but there are key freedom principles that do not align with the Bible. For example, the Bible does not teach to respect other religions, and in fact, calls for their punishment. The principles of religious freedom inherently respect all religions and our Government is not supposed to punish or penalize non-believers. Stuff like that. The free marketplace of religions is what the Founders were embracing. I hope India does as well, eventually. That is the point. The universal secular nature of our Government helps prevent wars and violence. If India had our religiously universal and secular Founding, there would be less of that violence.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: I guess it comes down to how this nation is going to be characterized in the future. If not a Christian nation then what? A freedom-based one, embracing the universal principles of freedom which include deeming things as wrong when they cross the line over to infringing upon or harming others.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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"the criteria for entering the judgement was the refusal to acknowledge sin and the rejection of His death and resurrection as price of redemption." Agreed---- This is why it's difficult to understand where some Christians get the idea that homosexuality, living together ,etc-- are ALSO a part of that 'going to hell' thing. It's one thing for homosexuality and sex outside of marriage, etc--- to be rejected as the personal decision of a group of people calling themselves a church -- and deciding that they in particular don't want to admit such people into their building. It's quite another to justify all of that by these sorts of Christians going around and telling everyone that "Jesus agrees with me, He would burn these gays in hell Himself" Jesus said believe in Him --- and talked about hell for those who didn't quite often. He was very forgiving of anyone who would just believe. Some Christians add quite a bit to what Jesus said -- adding many ideas and much emphasis that Christ didn't actually say.... Some Christians today want people to be perfect 30 seconds after they enter the door of the church--- to the standard of those Christians perception of things, and only pay lip-service to "only Christ judges" Others want EVERYONE around them to have to abide by their beliefs-- by the force of law if possible. We call that the Religious Right- a political action group. Last edited on 01:10 am by sirlamre Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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If it were Baha'is or some of ninja's buddies it would be important... but it's just those Fundamentalist Christians at it again. Oh, well. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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"A freedom-based one, embracing the universal principles of freedom which include deeming things as wrong when they cross the line over to infringing upon or harming others." 1. The principles of freedom are not universal. 2. The point at which the exercise of an individuals freedom crosses the line to infringe on the freedom of others is a matter of interpretation. 3. The basis of our freedom according to the Founders is the belief that our freedoms come from God.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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pmh1nic wrote: "A freedom-based one, embracing the universal principles of freedom which include deeming things as wrong when they cross the line over to infringing upon or harming others." 1. Why not? 2. Everything in life is a matter of interpretation, including written stuff, like the Bible 3. Irrelevant to the question. You asked "If not a Christian nation then what?" You didn't ask "What do the Founders think."
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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24HourNut wrote: pmh1nic wrote:"A freedom-based one, embracing the universal principles of freedom which include deeming things as wrong when they cross the line over to infringing upon or harming others." In Islamic nations do we see freedom? Not much. Only recently, has some of the backlash of Islamic restrictions on woman (no drivers license, head garb in public and other freedom restrictions) been softened by America's example of freedom for woman and womens rights here. The whole push for (Democracy=(OIL control  ) has been what's driving the freedom movements into normally restrictive Islamic nations.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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