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| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3   |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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24HourNut wrote: The problem is that we can't trust that big things weren't edited out, changed, or whole sections omitted or added way after the fact. Ya just can't trust it. The most famous dude in all those stories, and no info on most of his life? Given the level of detail we know about the lives of other people during the 100 years following His death, it IS an interesting point that we know so little. It's almost certain that FAR FAR more was known--- and I personally feel that much of what was known was JUST as verifiably true as anything in the Bible is ---- --but that those facts (interestingly enough) did NOT make it into the Bible. A search of the basement of the Vatican could be _really really_ interesting.... One wonders how many documents are in there which history "lost" many centuries ago ---
 Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  Smiling Shinobi
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Saint wrote: You're gonna burn in Hell for this thread, Ninja. Reading some of the replies to this thread ? Already there Saint ! Intellectually that is.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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 Here's my ONE reply.STUPID THREAD
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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librtyhead Original500© Member 
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JustifiedByFaith wrote:
You may borrow this. Attachment: (Downloaded times)
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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pmh1nic wrote:When Jesus was brought to trial it is recorded that no accusations against Him could stick. If some accusation of immorality (heterosexual or homosexual) could have been brought against Him by the strict religionist of His day it would have been. I don't believe a case can be made either way based on the particular words for "love." More specifically, John's gospel seems to use agape and philia interchangably (see chapter 21), and I don't remember John's gospel ever using the word eros. For this reason, I believe the evidence related to Jesus' sexuality remains inconclusive. So much the worse for us, I suppose. Last edited on 03:05 am by construct |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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Construct The different words for love were not being used interchangably in John 21. Jesus was asking Peter specifically "do you love me with agape love (unconditional, self-sacrifical)" and Peter was responding that "I love you like a brother". Jesus repeated the question because Peter was not giving Him the answer he was looking for. Jesus understood that Peter was going to require a self-sacrifical love for Jesus in order to fulfill the ministry he was going to inherit, a ministry he would eventually giving his life for.
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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pmh1nic wrote:Construct In that story, Jesus asked the question three times. One of those times, he used the word phileo. This indicates to me that John was using the term interchangably. There are also other instances in John's gospel of Jesus' using philia where one might have expected agape. Thus, while other writers may have distinguished the two words sometimes, John apparently did not. Nevertheless, I do not consider the various Greek words for "love" to be particularly helpful in giving insight into Jesus' sexuality. My position is that Jesus' sexuality was not a question at issue for the New Testament writers and that they simply did not address it. So much the worse for us, I suppose.
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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So I guess we're going to have to rephrase that age-old question: Who Would Jesus Do? 
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: So I guess we're going to have to rephrase that age-old question: Heh! 
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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"In that story, Jesus asked the question three times. One of those times, he used the word phileo. This indicates to me that John was using the term interchangably. There are also other instances in John's gospel of Jesus' using philia where one might have expected agape. Thus, while other writers may have distinguished the two words sometimes, John apparently did not." Construct, the first two times Jesus asked the question He used the word agape. He was specifically asking Peter if he loved Jesus with the unconditional, self-sacrifical love this word conveys. Peter had denied the Lord three times before the crucifixion and when asked this question (using the word agape) he responded using the word philo, well aware that his failure was a clear indication that he did not have agape love for Jesus. The third time Jesus asked Peter the question he changed the word from agape to philo. Peter who had been so bold to say he would suffer and die for Jesus was now aware of his weakness and the frailty of his love. He realized that he did not have the agape love he claimed to have for Jesus. That having been made clear Jesus lowers the standard in questioning him the third time to philo. Jesus didn't use words haphazardly. He used specific words for a reason.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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pmh1nic wrote: "In that story, Jesus asked the question three times. One of those times, he used the word phileo. This indicates to me that John was using the term interchangably. There are also other instances in John's gospel of Jesus' using philia where one might have expected agape. Thus, while other writers may have distinguished the two words sometimes, John apparently did not." I find it quite surprising that the Bible (is considered to) accurately portray the exact and precise words used by Christ in various phrases.. ...and yet, SO MUCH of what He must have said went unrecorded. Are we to assume that the ONLY worthy things He ever said are ALL recorded without fail in the Bible? That everything else He ever said was not worthy of being recorded in the Bible? I find it interesting that people rely SO HARD and SO MUCH on the exact and precise words used, as recalled 75-100 years later by someone else, when the Bible has so clearly failed (or the men who assembled the Bible failed) to provide SO MUCH of what Christ surely said and surely did, that is not recorded. I find it amazing (and unlikely) that the ONLY things that Christ did and said can be summarized in just a few short pages (considering that the mass of the NT is about other events occuring later on, and not anecdotal of what Christ said and did) I think the spiritual truths as recorded in the Bible are there as needed--- But I find it less than reassuring that somehow the authors of the New Testament would record what is a relatively miniscule amount of detail regarding the statements and events of 3 years, or even 33 years of the most important Person who lived at that time in their eyes. And yet, somehow, what they DID record is so incredibly accurate that we know the precise word that Christ used for something? How statistically likely is it that there was tremendously accurate detail known of just a handful of phrases uttered by Christ and actions taken by Him, yet hundreds of other statements and actions taken by Christ are unknown? (or so unverifiable that the 'assemblers' of the Bible chose to leave them out) We know that in other societies outside Western culture who use oral history and memorization instead of everyone being written-literate, people often can recall vast quantities of things that were said by someone; many times, people in such societies can recite entire hour long speeches given, stories that have been handed down and are retold with the same words and even the same inflections correctly memorized. This has been verified many times over to be the case in situations where a sizable group of people were not literate in writing, etc - they have far far better memories than most of us who write things down do. The Ancient World is a prime example of this- in a time when the majority of what occured was never written down, orators would recite hours-long works of prose, and the people of that time could easily recount what they had heard and recite large parts of it themselves. This was true even in the West in the 19th century, people were able to recite large portions of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address for years afterwards (there are lots of diaries with this written in them, many dated the day of the event, prior to newspapers publishing the text) I personally feel that in an age where oral history was so much the practice and memorization of what was said was so commonplace, because the world around you was a far far more verbal place... ...that it's highly likely that all the Gospel authors actually recorded FAR more about Christ and His actions and words --- and that much of that content was 'not approved' by the men who assembled the Bible. I find it very unlikely that the Bible contains EVERYTHING that was ever verifiably known of Christ and His doings, and that anything not mentioned was suspect or unverifiable in some way.
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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sirlamre wrote: I find it interesting that people rely SO HARD and SO MUCH on the exact and precise words used, as recalled 75-100 years later by someone else, I find it hard to accept writing under those conditions to be "accurate reporting." sirlamre wrote: I find it amazing (and unlikely) that the ONLY things that Christ did and said can be summarized in just a few short pages (considering that the mass of the NT is about other events occuring later on, and not anecdotal of what Christ said and did) That is a great point for the case that things should not be taken too literally in the Bible! sirlamre wrote: But I find it less than reassuring that somehow the authors of the New Testament would record what is a relatively miniscule amount of detail regarding the statements and events of 3 years, or even 33 years of the most important Person who lived at that time in their eyes. This reasoning is something I share and part of why I find the work so suspect.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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24HourNut wrote: sirlamre wrote:I find it interesting that people rely SO HARD and SO MUCH on the exact and precise words used, as recalled 75-100 years later by someone else, That's why I regard the Bible as being COMPLETELY accurate from the POV of it's spiritual message and spiritual lessons --- but NOT to be completely accurate from a historical events perspective and an 'exactly which Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic word did some author of some book use" sense of things. As I said, I think it's VERY likely that a GREAT DEAL more was accurately known and quite verifiable regarding Jesus' life, and even more parables and lessons He gave, and statements He made regarding belief, etc I think it quite likely that some of that was even recorded by the respected Christian authors of the day- But- then when the men 'assembled' the Bible, much (or even most) of those well-verifiable and well-recorded "words of Christ" fell by the wayside during the theological, social, and political quarrels over what was and was not "Christian belief" and "true history" Somehow I do not believe that "God guided" that entire process to such a narrow result and small quantity of information as we posses. Last edited on 06:16 pm by sirlamre Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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I find it very hard to buy that God was telling some writer hundreds of years later which word to use or which part of which story to write. So, your comments make a lot of sense to me, Sirlamre.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member
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Sirlamre "I find it quite surprising that the Bible (is considered to) accurately portray the exact and precise words used by Christ in various phrases.. ...and yet, SO MUCH of what He must have said went unrecorded." Don't be surprised. The Apostle John said... "This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." "Are we to assume that the ONLY worthy things He ever said are ALL recorded without fail in the Bible?" I think the New Testament writers, guided by the Holy Spirit, wrote the things that were most central to the message Jesus came to convey. "I find it interesting that people rely SO HARD and SO MUCH on the exact and precise words used, as recalled 75-100 years later by someone else," You will get very different opinions about when the first written accounts were made. Some scholars say all the books of the new testament were written prior to A.D. 100, during the lifetime of contemporaries of Jesus and his disciples. Another point to keep in mind is the reverence and care the Jewish people (the vast majority of the early disciples were Jewish) had for the scriptures and how careful they were in the transmission and reproduction of manuscripts. "I find it amazing (and unlikely) that the ONLY things that Christ did and said can be summarized in just a few short pages (considering that the mass of the NT is about other events occuring later on, and not anecdotal of what Christ said and did)" That is not accurate. About half of the New Testament is devoted to the record of Jesus life and ministry (the four Gospels). The other half is the history of the first century church and how the message of salvation was conveyed during that period, in addition to revelation about things to come and Jesus return.
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