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| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3   |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
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The idea that Jesus never existed has been rejected by almost every seroius historian. He is mentioned in more ancient sources than Tiberius Caesar (who was Emperor of Rome at the time). You can't expect Jesus (a homeless guy) to have had cities named for Him. You have the four Gospels (as Construct points out three were written by people who knew Him) You have two letters by Peter (who knew Him) Three letters by John (who knew him) One letter by James (his half brother) In all you have a total of 27 books from the NewTestament written by eight (I think) different people, all hold that Jesus was a real person. Then there are the secular ancient writers: Tactius Suetonius Josepheus Thallus Lucian of Samosata Pliny the Younger Phlegon Mar Bar-Serapion We even have a letter by the Roman Emperor Trajan (AD 98-117) on the subject of the early Christians and what to do about them, even Trajan himself does not question that Jesus existed!
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Interesting thread. I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus existed. None. I also have no doubts as to the Bible's illumination of many vital spiritual truths. But the Bible as a complete, nothing overlooked, everything important enough to know about, utterly accurate historical record of Jesus' life? I don't think so. The historical records of the time do much to show what was the common 'standard' of documenting people who were important. I have no doubt that the Gospel writers knew far more of Jesus, and probably wrote their knowledge of Him down, than the men who assembled the NT actually decided to 'keep' in the Book. There is a mystery here.
 Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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I have no doubt that the Gospel writers knew far more of Jesus, and probably wrote their knowledge of Him down, than the men who assembled the NT actually decided to 'keep' in the Book. Sirlamre, Your ideas about alterations to the Bible after it was written simply do not hold water. There is overwhelming and mounting proof that the NT as we have it is the NT as it was written. We have fragments from a very early date, some as early as the late 1st to early 2nd century, these conform to the Majority Text of the Greek NT as we have it today. Methods of reconstruction can be and have been used to show that, where more than one person records the same event, events are recorded accurately. Historical evidence conforms to what is recorded in the NT and so on. If it gives you some comfort to believe that large sections of the Bible were "cut out" by Constantine the Great, feel free to believe that. However, all the evidence that we have points in the other direction and points there strongly. If there were radical changes to the text of the NT as you claim, why don't the early MSS fragments that we have show this? Please explain why you believe that more was included in the NT than what we have today. Please explain who you think removed sections from the NT and why you believe they did so. Please show me early manuscripts that contain sctions that were later removed. There are thousands of these, so this should be pretty easy for you if your ideas are correct.  Last edited on 05:08 am by Aethelred |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Aethelred wrote: I have no doubt that the Gospel writers knew far more of Jesus, and probably wrote their knowledge of Him down, than the men who assembled the NT actually decided to 'keep' in the Book. I'm not suggesting that what we have in there now was later altered. I'm saying that given the nature of biographical and oral histories of the time, there was a lot more material available that was NOT ever put into the Bible. I think the Gospels that we have certainly are there in their entirety---- I think there's just a LOT more material that is NOT included... And I don't buy the thought that "everything else was unverifiable" If we can so accurately verify which Greek words were used in a particular Gospel that conclusive evidence can be safely drawn from what those Greek words were, then why are all the OTHER writings that were around from the same authors or other Apostles than the four we know of-- -- why suddenly is every single bit of any other extant material (at the time the NT was "finalised") completely suspect and not to be included? Certainly a percentage of it was --- we know that various far-off-center Christian sects existed, and that yes, their writings probably WERE not to be trusted. But if both Peter and John recorded that Christ's hair was brown -- why is that fact not in the Bible? I think it highly unlikely that such details were simply NEVER EVER written down or remembered by anyone at all --- Not that 'hair color' is particularly important -- that's just one example. But do you REALLY believe that the ONLY words of any spiritual importance that Christ EVER uttered are the ones recorded? In three years time, all that He said was as much as is recorded? Even including the recollections of the Apostles, Christ must SURELY have said more ideas and concepts than are recorded --- it's not academically rigorous to just toss off the line that 'whatever isn't in the Bible must not be important enough" Not given Who Christ was and the importance of the things He Said.
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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But do you REALLY believe that the ONLY words of any spiritual importance that Christ EVER uttered are the ones recorded? Other than you, who is making that claim? The Gospel of John says: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Aethelred wrote: But do you REALLY believe that the ONLY words of any spiritual importance that Christ EVER uttered are the ones recorded? Aethelred, I took that as meaning that Jesus did do and say many other significant things, but only so many, or only certain things, made "the cut."
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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24HourNut wrote: Aethelred wrote:But do you REALLY believe that the ONLY words of any spiritual importance that Christ EVER uttered are the ones recorded? Correct, that is just what I am saying! The Gospels were not intended as biographies of Christ and they were not intended to be history books. If you read John expecting Tacitus, well that would be like reading a newspaper with a section of the 2008 Election and expecting to find complete 1400 page biographies of each candidate, the history of each position that candidate holds, the full text of every statement that candidate ever made and complete histories of each party. I believe that to the Gospel writers what they were writing was a little like a newspaper, they were giving a brief account of the news they were wanting to spread.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Gotchya. Odd though, isn't it, that besides looks, basic life info for most of Jesus' life is absent?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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24HourNut wrote: Gotchya. Odd though, isn't it, that besides looks, basic life info for most of Jesus' life is absent? Well, the NT writers recorded Jesus' Geneology Information about His parents Information about His birth A few events from His youth The names and actions of His friends and followers The names and actions of his enemies His major public ministry Detailed information about His death What would you have added? We know more about Jesus, from more sources, than we do about almost any other ancient figure other than a major head of state.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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It just seems relative to the amount of writing and what one would expect for such a famous character, there are odd giant mysteries on some major basic life aspects and time periods.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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Anomaly wrote: JustifiedByFaith wrote: What work did Jesus leave behind? The work that you and I could never do. The saving of our pathetic souls was laid on Him at the cross. Yet, being spit upon He finished the job. Praise Jesus... God's only Son who died for a sinful man like me.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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I think it's unreasonable to say that Jesus should've left some written account of his own behind to prove he existed. For one thing, a written account doesn't prove he existed. Putting your name on something doesn't prove you are who you say you are (which is the issue I have with the authorship of the Gospels). The other problem is, people were mostly illiterate at this time. Only scribes and priests (and historians like Tacitus, of course) had literacy. I do believe that someone named Jesus existed historically at the time, and that miracles were accredited to him. It's also clear that his followers believed he rose from the dead. What's not clear at all to me is that we have the actual words of Jesus, or factual accounts of the wondrous things he did. Outside of the Gospels, all I've seen is "People say...", or "they call him", or "it is said...". (e.g., the parts of Josephus that historians agree are accurate).
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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Brian wrote: I think it's unreasonable to say that Jesus should've left some written account of his own behind to prove he existed. For one thing, a written account doesn't prove he existed. Putting your name on something doesn't prove you are who you say you are (which is the issue I have with the authorship of the Gospels). The other problem is, people were mostly illiterate at this time. Only scribes and priests (and historians like Tacitus, of course) had literacy. I accredit you here Brian with a realistic, common sense approach to the matter. For people to argue that Jesus never existed really are beating a dead horse. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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It seems to me that is a weak system to base a whole religious faith on what other people wrote, assuming it is either accurate, not manipulated, or true, then having to translate and decipher. Surely there is a better, more Godly way to let everyone know that not only did Jesus exist, but he was God and did divine miracles.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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Brian wrote:construct wrote:You have the four gospels (three of which were written by people who actually knew him) and a letter from Jesus' brother. What more do you want? What degree of certainty do you want? There is no evidence that principle authorship of the gospels was called into question during the first two centuries. We know Jesus had a brother because he is mentioned in the gospels. I certainly do not believe that either the modern critical texts or the majority text are absolutely identical with the hypothetical "origianl autographs." Mark 16:8ff. seems to be later additions. John 8:1ff. seems to be a later addition. The last verse in Matthew's version of the Lord's Prayer seems to be a later addition. Get the picture yet? It is not that later texts suppressed or excised material (although the heretic Marcion did). Rather the text tended to grow longer. The same is true on the level of micro-additions to the text. Variants tended to get preserved in the recopying process. Because most surviving manuscripts are late, most surviving manuscripts contain many of these accretions. Modern textual criticism has largely culled these "additions." That is why I prefer the modern critical texts to Aethel's majority text. Last edited on 03:47 pm by construct |
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