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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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"In the beginning, GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth," Genesis 1:1 and, "Through faith we understand that the world was made by the Word of God. Things we see were made from what could not be seen." Hebrews 11:3  OR "Once upon a time perhaps three billion years ago, under a deadly sun, in an ammoniated ocean topped by a poisonous atmosphere in the midst of a soup of organic molecules, a nucleic acid molecule came ACCIDENTALLY INTO BEING that could SOMEHOW BRING ABOUT the existence of another like itself." Isaac Asimov, The Well -Spings of Life http://www.earthtraces.com/godsodds.shtml
 Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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http://www.earthtraces.com/godsodds.shtml This looks to be very interesting JBF. I don't have time to really read it right now, but I will take the time later. Thanks for posting this..................
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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foxglovepress wrote: http://www.earthtraces.com/godsodds.shtml Your welcome fox.  "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Colossians 1:15-16
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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Hi, JBF. I haven't yet taken a thorough look at the page, but Hollingsworth has stumbled into at least one misunderstanding, as I can see it. The author states: Let's go back to that first tiny creature that would have started all evolution and try to understand the unbelievable creation it in itself was. That first tiny organism was incredibly complex - with all our science and understanding we can't come close to creating anything like it. Consider one of the simplest living organisms now known, the single-DNA strand E.Coli bacteria. Even this simplest organism has about 5,000 genes - the genetic code holders. Alter the position, leave out or change the chemical combinations up of just a few lines of code and the organism ceases to thrive. There are 4.80 x 1050 (3)possible DNA combinations in those 5,000 genes. That means the odds of that DNA strand forming are: The problem is, the author is calculating the wrong thing. That (if the number is correct, and I haven't checked that) is the odds of an E. coli assembling itself out of nothing. The three problems with this are: 1) It assumes that E. coli are the simplest form of life ever in existence. We know this to be false. There are simpler forms of life, even today. 2) Hollingsworth assumes that each and every gene has to be in one precise position. That's simply not true. There can be a lot of variation in the DNA that can still result in a viable organism. 3) Hollingsworth seems to assume you only get one bite of the apple. In reality, there's no reason to assume that. And if the process took, say, an hour, that means it could happen 8,760,000,000 times in a billion years. That's a lot of chances. And that's assuming it was only happening in one place at a time. So even on his own flawed terms (an E. coli springing out of nothing) he's still got the math involved wrong. It's a fairly common fallacy, actually. It's sort of like when you meet someone you knew in grammar school thousands of miles from where you live, 30 years later. The odds look staggering because of the specificity of the event, not because of the actual probabilities involved.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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Hi Brian, I assumed correctly that this thread would quickly invite you. My point here in posting this is once again... the simple side of me. Regardless of what cell started... there are huge numbers of improbability for time and chance accounting for life as we see it today. With such incredible complexity in life...the denial of a initial Designer or Master Engineer would be intentional blindness in my opinion.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Hi Brian, Hi, JBF. If you want to say that it's highly improbable that life would evolve in the way that we see it today, I don't really have a beef with that. That you and I would be stting here talking about this 5 billion years later is, indeed, highly inprobable. My only point was that the author takes a lot of liberties with the math. If he's convinced himself the odds of evolution being true are 1 in 480,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 it's no wonder he thinks it can't happen. Obviously, the elements of life aren't ubiquitous, or we wouldn't be the only planet with intelligent life in the solar system That right there's gotta make you feel a little special.  The universe is a big place, though. It's a little bit premature to say we're the best the universe (or anyone/anything in charge) has come up with. 
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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I understand your point Brian. You have also been consistent to not say that there is no possibility of a Chief Designer. Some on this Forum I think believe otherwise... yet do not wish to engage on this subject. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: I understand your point Brian. You have also been consistent to not say that there is no possibility of a Chief Designer. Some on this Forum I think believe otherwise... yet do not wish to engage on this subject. Creation is far more complex than we will ever understand. God created all of that complexity, to operate by rules of His design. God still has His Hand on the machine of Creation -- But there ARE rules and mysteries and complexities. Genesis does NOT literally and materially describe the process by which Creation came to be. But that doesn't mean that God didn't Create everything that is....
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  Smiling Shinobi
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I find the fact that there is no cosmic designer (who designed the designer ?) and that life some how found a way to get where we are infinately more fascinating than a universe with somekind of intelligent design. Some also seem to be under the arrogant belief that we as humans are the Alpha and indeed Omega of the cosmic designers plan ! How do you KNOW this ?, do you accept the possibility that there could be lifeforms out there far in advance of us in every way ? and they accept the same theology as you ? If an extraterrestrial landed in your front lawn and gave you irrefutable proof that god is a lie would you except it ?, or shoot E.T in the face and take your bible back the basement ?
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member Smiling Shinobi
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: "In the beginning, GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth," An "accident" created penicillin. An "accident" created the science of displacement. An "accident" created the theory of gravity. An "accident" proved the existence of Radioacitivity. There are billions of "accidents" the vast majority of them are bad, but there are a very small percentage that have proved to be advantageous.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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cynicalninja wrote: I find the fact that there is no cosmic designer (who designed the designer ?) and that life some how found a way to get where we are infinately more fascinating than a universe with somekind of intelligent design. In the beginning God... First Cause. Alpha
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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cynicalninja Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member Smiling Shinobi
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yeah thanks for that. Quoting from your archiac book of fables and using the greek alphabet out of context sure as hell shoots my posts down in flames ! Well done !  Remind in future when we enter into a dialogue to try and enter a trance state where my critical brain and my sense of objective reasoning don't come into play !, perhaps then in my trance like state of oblivion and passive acceptance of archiac fables that have been re-written dozens of times we may as yet be able to converse on a level that is acceptable to you. Until then ?, sorry ! Alive, awake, questioning, exploring, discovering, learning, the life of the mind is a busy one ! Ta ta !  Last edited on 02:56 am by cynicalninja |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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cynicalninja wrote:
Are you sure you need me to remind you? 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Impedimentus Original500© Member  Terricolous Creature
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JBF ignores the fact (ignoring facts is one of his specialties) that using "probabilities after that fact" is a fools game. A mathematical model is only as reliable as the assumptions upon which it is based. If a preponderance of evidence shows that evolution occurred, but simple-minded calculations using probability theory say it hasn't, then one has to assume that the probability model was faulty. Creationists clowns misuse probability theory all the time to try and promote their favorite pseudo-science nonsense, intelligent design. This phony science should be ignored - cracking open pistachio nut shells is a more rewarding and intelligent pastime. Of course when you are weak in your faith, or your faith is the result of deception by the devil, you resort to these amateurish tricks. Example. I could throw a toothpick up into the air and after it lands calculate the probability that it will land with the unique orientation that it actually lands at - the probability, compared to all other possible landing appears almost infinitely small - but it has landed in that orientation. These probability after the fact arguments are tedious at best and stupid when examined seriously.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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I see that Imp is on which usually tells me it's about my bed time. 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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