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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > The Official Evolution vs Creation thread for 24 and PMH. |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14   |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Popeyesays wrote: Okay, first of all man IS a primate, Man did not evolve from primates, man evolved conurrently with other primates. I don't agree that man did not evolve from primates. I fully believe our ancestors were primates. If you don't, that's fine with me. I did consider your question and answered you. Sophistication and cerebral capacity.
 The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Popeyesays wrote:Okay, first of all man IS a primate, Man did not evolve from primates, man evolved conurrently with other primates. I hesitate to ask another question so I'll just try to state what I am trying to get at and you can argue against it if you please: That which separates man from beast is the capacity to worry about the outcomes of ethical choices. A dog mates, eats, defecates, establishes itself in the pecking order without concern for ethical choice. A baboon mates, eats, defecates, establishes itself in the pecking order without concern for ethical choices. A chimp mates, eats, defecates, establishes itself in the pecking order without concern for ethical choices. Aside from sociopaths man cannot do anything without wondering about the ethical choices he makes. Whether elephants or dolphins make ethical choices, I am not prepared to decide. That capacity for worrying about "sin" or the ethical footprints he leaves behind is what makes man something OTHER than beast. Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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I don't agree - morals are a byproduct of a social structure and primates have their own morals. They do worry about the consequence of their actions - we know this from the stealing and punishment dynamic they engage in, as a fast example. They can go through very complex processes and social cooperation to get certain results. They have great emotional and social intelligence - we just have a lot more. It's a matter of amount. Sin is just BS people made up, not relevant. But you aren't getting that how much more socially intelligent we are is not relevant to my point. I know we are more advanced then them. I was speaking about how our basic behaviors are traced back to them. As you go back in time our dynamics match where we evolved from.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: I don't agree - morals are a byproduct of a social structure and primates have their own morals. They do worry about the consequence of their actions - we know this from the stealing and punishment dynamic they engage in, as a fast example. They can go through very complex processes and social cooperation to get certain results. They have great emotional and social intelligence - we just have a lot more. It's a matter of amount. Sin is just BS people made up, not relevant. You're describing a pod of whales, a pack of wolves, a pride of lions, even a murder of crows none of which creatures are primates. Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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No, I was describing primates.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Here is a post I did last year: Animals have their own morality, just like different people in different time periods do. Intelligent and social animals know stealing is wrong because, like us, they have an idea or appreciation of "possession." If something belongs to them, they know it. They also know when it doesn't. Religious people need you to think that morals come from religion and not base social structure. They need you to think that religion came first, even though it didn't. Their claims tie into their position that one of the strongest evidences for the existence of God is man's unique moral nature. So, religious people tend to be very concerned about statements that animals have some moral sense or reservation about things like stealing. Yet, animal morals even extend to their decisions on who to hurt, and why. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_page_id=1965&in_article_id=468822 "If a fellow chimp does them wrong - by stealing their nuts or pinching their fruit - they go out of their way to exact a deliberate, and sometimes aggressive, punishment." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/science/20moral.html "human morality would be impossible without certain emotional building blocks that are clearly at work in chimp and monkey societies." "Social living requires empathy, which is especially evident in chimpanzees, as well as ways of bringing internal hostilities to an end. Every species of ape and monkey has its own protocol for reconciliation after fights" From some of these and other articles: All intelligent, social animals have their own type of morality, right from wrong. Primates have complex systems of morality and justice: reward for good behaviour and punishment for bad, and I can't recall ever having seen a monkey reading the Torah. Even lower order primates are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. They don't need the Bible to tell them that murder is wrong. What we whare with them is the built in need, as groups that needs to survive as best they can, for socially productive behavior. ---------------------- This piece on Apes was especially cool, I thought: Apes are special because they are so closely related to us," says Mr Redmond. "Chimpanzees and bonobos are our joint closest living relatives, differing by only one per cent of DNA - so close we could accept a blood transfusion or a kidney. Gorillas are next, then orang-utans." Show a gibbon a mirror and the reaction suggests he or she thinks the reflection is another gibbon. But all the great apes have passed the 'mirror self-recognition' test and soon begin checking their teeth or examining parts of their body they couldn't see without the mirror. This self-awareness surely suggests that they know they exist." Apes also share a range of human emotions. They have a similar lifespan to humans and form strong family bonds which they maintain for life, she says. And apes have displayed a tenderness which could be described as love, anxiety when separated, and fear, jealousy and trauma. If I was an alien from Mars and looked at human society and a society of apes then in terms of the emotional life I would see no distinct difference, although we live very different lives because of language and technology. ----------------------------- So, even animals have a sense of right from wrong within their social structures. So do humans. God, organized religions, religion in general came WAY after that train.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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So what distinguishes animal behavior from human behavior? Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Popeyesays wrote: So what distinguishes animal behavior from human behavior? I keep telling you my answer.  We are more sophisticated and intelligent about what we do. We are sophisticated primates.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Popeyesays wrote:So what distinguishes animal behavior from human behavior? Okay, WHAT makes us more sophisticated. What is the sophistication you speak of? In my terms it is the "rational soul" which mankind possesses which seems to make the difference. Whether we ponder religion or particle physics the process is the same. We are not just self-recognized individuals, we are creatures concerned with where we came from and where we go. Prove that other primates possess that capacity, or at least consider it if you cannot prove it. Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209 " The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names--the human spirit and the rational soul--designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets. 6 But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun." Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Cerebral capacity and development is what makes us different - our brains evolved differently and more powerful, so our social and emotional dynamics and intelligence is greater, and more subtle. Isn't this stuff obvious? The soul and sin stuff is all BS religious/superstitious people made up.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Cerebral capacity and development is what makes us different - our brains evolved differently and more powerful, so our social and emotional dynamics and intelligence is greater, and more subtle. Isn't this stuff obvious? The soul and sin stuff is all BS religious/superstitious people made up. Well, isn't it obvious to you that you, me and a chimpanzee vary less than 1% in our entire genetic codes including all the dead space and irrelevant aleles which we possess and MAN can reason out string theory and a chimp does even have the desire? The rational soul is as obvious to me as it is not to you, Frank. We don't need to bump heads on it. Why do we? Because to humans such thoughts matter and they don't seem to do that to a troupe of chimpanzees. Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Well, isn't it obvious to you that you, me and a chimpanzee vary less than 1% in our entire genetic codes including all the dead space and irrelevant aleles which we possess and MAN can reason out string theory and a chimp does even have the desire? Yes, it is obvious that chimp doesn't have our brain power. The rational soul is as obvious to me as it is not to you, Frank. Invisible forces you feel like believing or subjective feelings that are in your head don't really factor into an objective discussion about whether or not primates have morals. Either their social structure produces it or it doesn't. Socially and emotionally intelligent creatures like primates have morals. This conversation was about how human sexuality, which is very animalistic and includes rape, is traced back to primates. We don't need to bump heads on it. Why do we? We only need to if you keep asking me about it.  Because to humans such thoughts matter and they don't seem to do that to a troupe of chimpanzees. Our basic behaviors are the same - we want power, safety, food, we go to the bathroom like animals, have sex like them, fear, anxiety, stealing, punishment, form groups, kill, hunt, bond .. all the same basic stuff primates do. In fact, there are some uncanny similarities. Well, they aren't uncanny if you first understand we came from them.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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"Our basic behaviors are the same - we want power, safety, food, we go to the bathroom like animals, have sex like them, fear, anxiety, stealing, punishment, form groups, kill, hunt, bond .. all the same basic stuff primates do. In fact, there are some uncanny similarities. Well, they aren't uncanny if you first understand we came from them." We actually came from Saccoglossus kowaleski. 
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Do they punish others for stealing?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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24HourNut wrote: Do they punish others for stealing? No, only for drinking alcohol! 
Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me. |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > The Official Evolution vs Creation thread for 24 and PMH. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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