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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > Does God know when and how you will die? |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3   |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Sin is to disobey God and it is unrighteousness. Satan disobeyed and you might say he was the first to sin.Original sin has no bearing on the eternal consequences of Adam and Eve's choices. So you punish your pet human that "disobeyed" by making everyone else be born with sin? Can it sound any more like an embellished archaic allegory?
 The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Without Jesus we fall short...
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Frank, We either accept the way it is or we create God according to our desired image and according to what we like? There is 35,000+ choices outside of truth or we can create another option that fits our needs?
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Saint Forum-Blogger© Pioneer100© Member  Polymath
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I think you are looking at the picture wrong, Frank. It's not like a movie that is already filmed. It's more like a tree with many many branches. God know the end result of every branch it is possible for you to take. He lets you make the choices to take any path you wish at any joint.
A^2 + B^2 = C^2 |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Frank, "The way it is" and the "truth" is not defined by you or the particular religious organization you happen to subscribe to at this time.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Saint wrote: I think you are looking at the picture wrong, Frank. It's not like a movie that is already filmed. Hi Saint, the problem is, God already KNOWS which branch you took not only before you were born, but before Eve took the bite of the fruit he KNEW she was going to bite. When he created Adam and Eve he created all the events he KNEW were going to happen because he KNOWS the choices you were going to make because he KNOWS the future already. He knows the future after you are dead, right? So God already knew what you were going to do before he set Eve up in some game. There is no "gee, let's see what path Saint takes and decision he makes ... I wonder what branch he will go down." God knows it already. You just described a movie that has an unknown ending, yet, we know God already knows the ending. God knew the start, middle and end of the movie before, during, and after our deaths. That leads to the problem with God - seems like there is no real reason to make human pets when you already know the movie. What, to watch yourself be worshipped in a flash since you already know the movie?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: Sin is to disobey God and it is unrighteousness. Satan disobeyed and you might say he was the first to sin.Original sin has no bearing on the eternal consequences of Adam and Eve's choices. Hi, JBF. I think we might be talking about two different things here. Original sin isn't disobeying God. Original sin (as I understand it) is something someone is born with, without having even had the chance to sin yet (let alone the moral culpability that would come with reason). As I understand it, man's proclivity towards sin is bound up in original sin. So that would seem to beg the question, where did Adam & Eve's proclivity towards sin come from? It's always been my understanding that if Adam & Eve had chosen not to sin, we'd all be home free. (Thanks, you two!  )It's also my understanding that original sin is the whole reason one needs a savior. Without original sin, we'd still be living in the Garden, communing with God. So the original sin has quite a bit to do with eternal consequences.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: As I understand it, man's proclivity towards sin is bound up in original sin. So that would seem to beg the question, where did Adam & Eve's proclivity towards sin come from? Great question. I submit that as another piece of evidence that God is responsible for the whole situation and apparently set Adam and Eve up to start embarking on the path he already knows is going to happen since he knows and invented the future.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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24HourNut wrote: Brian wrote:As I understand it, man's proclivity towards sin is bound up in original sin. So that would seem to beg the question, where did Adam & Eve's proclivity towards sin come from? I'm still not sold on the idea that God invents the future, in Christian theology. That would mean we have no free will. I think most Christians would strongly disagree with that. I see the problem as a little bit narrower than that: Original sin, specifically, is an inborn condition. It's the proclivity towards evil. That doesn't mean that you must choose evil -- just that you're inclined to, when it's available. Only, the narrative seems to break down with Adam & Eve. They weren't born with such a proclivity. But without that, it's impossible to fathom their disobedience. They had what was absolutely the sweetest deal ever, and they blew it. But they didn't have sinful natures to blame it on. More troubling, of course, is that they didn't have a savior. I'm puzzled as to why God would take 4,000 some-odd years to produce a savior, condemning untold billions to the Eternal Deep Fryer. That's what convinces me that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are completely different guys. An omnipotent, omniscient being couldn't possibly screw the pooch that badly.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Brian wrote: I'm still not sold on the idea that God invents the future, in Christian theology. That would mean we have no free will. That's my point, I am showing the problem with Christian theology in that regard. Free will is a joke when you create the story and know the future - you created the future. If already know how the future, such as how Person X is going to die, then you already know the path they took and choices they made. You can altar that by changing just one little thing you did at the start. I'm puzzled as to why God would take 4,000 some-odd years to produce a savior, condemning untold billions to the Eternal Deep Fryer To me that is just an obvious flaw in the Christian story. You would have to accept that God made that happen. He KNEW there would be no savior when he KNEW Eve was going to bite the fruit. If God knows the future then God knew there was going to be no savior, a savior needed, and an Eve situation (which he pre-edited and created) for a fruit-eating drama. You can't know the future and not know the Eve was going to eat the fruit. When you create everything and know the future at the same time, you created that future. Either that is true or God does NOT know the future and you do have free will and God has to wait and judge waiting to be surprised. I have a feeling God isn't in the dark wondering what your future holds.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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24HourNut wrote: Brian wrote:I'm still not sold on the idea that God invents the future, in Christian theology. That would mean we have no free will. But I think you're making a mistake here. I don't think Christian theology involves God making the future. While there are religions that deny free will, Christianity isn't among them. You can know which choices someone will make in life without forcing them to make those choices. You could argue that a beneficent God would only allow us to choose the good things for our lives, and that would negate free will, but to simply lay the choices out for us is not to negate free will, even if you know what we'll choose. (Whether that's moral or not is another story.) 24HourNut wrote:
This is the bigger problem, I think. If you know the future, and know that the problem will exist, then withholding the right choice -- not even allowing people to choose it -- just seems like a sadistic game.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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But I think you're making a mistake here. I don't think Christian theology involves God making the future. While there are religions that deny free will, Christianity isn't among them. You can know which choices someone will make in life without forcing them to make those choices. You could argue that a beneficent God would only allow us to choose the good things for our lives, and that would negate free will, but to simply lay the choices out for us is not to negate free will, even if you know what we'll choose. (Whether that's moral or not is another story.) The Christian theology may not involve God making the future but my position is that that is implied and required anyway to make their other claims true. By virtue of the fact that you picked one particular set of ingredients from the infinite possible combinations, means you edited the story. ESPECIALLY since you can instantly see, in realtime, the different futures that result from the different ways you start your creation out. When God drowned everyone, kids included, because of how mankind turned out. It wasn't a surprise. God knew what each and every person was going to do and that he was going to Flood them before God even made Eve. Unless you want to say God had no idea he was going to be Flooding those people for the bad things certain individuals were engaging in. If you know the future, and know that the problem will exist, then withholding the right choice -- not even allowing people to choose it -- just seems like a sadistic game. Exactly. God KNEW the religons that existed before Christianity and after/besides it were going to be whole heartedly believed by billions of good intentioned nice productive people. He also knew it was going to be a never ending source of conflict and problems. He knew there would be honest differences because of how most people are born into their religion and region. He knew it was going to be a confusing mess with modern people seeing how archaic thest test and text games are. When you make the movie, the beginning, the interventions, the ingredients while seeing the outcome (end) you are responsible for that end because you created and chose it. God CHOSE an Eve that would bite the fruit. He knew that kind of Eve in that kind of setting would take a bite. He knew it. He did.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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God knew all of it. He also gave mankind the only solution to spiritual death and separation from Him. Yet, mankind chooses to reject Jesus and insert his own ways, his own systems, and make his own attempts at self righteousness. Before one can desire to be saved one must understand he is lost and see the love of God for Him and the sacrifice God has made for Him.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: God knew all of it. He also gave mankind the only solution to spiritual death and separation from Him. Yet, mankind chooses to reject Jesus and insert his own ways, his own systems, and make his own attempts at self righteousness. Before one can desire to be saved one must understand he is lost and see the love of God for Him and the sacrifice God has made for Him. Hi, JBF. I don't have any problem believing that man rejected Jesus when he showed up. That seems pretty self-evident, if the narrative is to be believed. The difficulty I'm having can be summed up in, "What took God so long?" Honestly, I don't know the timeframe between Adam and Jesus, but I think you'd agree it would be at least thousands of years, right? So for all that time, man was both fallen, in need of a savior, and denied that very savior. It seems as though God withheld Jesus, condemning many millions of people in the process.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Without Jesus we fall short...
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It seems that way Brian. Although, the Old Testament prophets point Israel and the pre-Christian world to the coming Messiah. Abraham did not see the Christ but as we read in the scriptures he was saved by this hope, trust and faith in what God said in His Son to come. Faith is what saves. I agree it does appear that prior to the Old Testament... mankind was without hope. This possibility still doesn't change the choice we have to make today does it?
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Free.man Original500© Member
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: It seems that way Brian. Although, the Old Testament prophets point Israel and the pre-Christian world to the coming Messiah. Abraham did not see the Christ but as we read in the scriptures he was saved by this hope, trust and faith in what God said in His Son to come. Faith is what saves. I agree it does appear that prior to the Old Testament... mankind was without hope. This possibility still doesn't change the choice we have to make today does it?Dear friend; You know as well as I do that OT prophets point humanity to others along with Jesus just as Jesus pointed to those God-given Messengers to come after Him. Denying this fact is the same as denying that God provided His Prophets and Messengers even before the OT prophets. Mankind was never without hope because of this and never will be without hope just because you say so. The Christianity that you espouse here is no doubt waning because you specifically and Christianity in general simply do not provide adequate answers for current questions sincerely asked. New American Standard Bible (©1995) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him Free  man
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