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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > A Clash Of Civilizations |
| Moderated by: 24HourNut | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7   |
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Lon Guardian1000© Member  Septuagenarian
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Brian wrote: Lon wrote:You can no more leave religion out of this discussion than you can say the Inquisition and the Crudades were politically motivated. Give me a break!!
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
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The problem with Islam is that Muhammed, who founded it, would by almost any rational standard be considered a part of the radical side of Islam. -He killed his rivals or had them killed. -He attacked peaceful trading caravans for the sole purpose of stealing their goods. -He advanced his religion at the point of the sword. -He was married to a nine year old girl when he was 54. Of course, regardless of the problems with Muhammed, there are good people who follow Islam today. Last edited on 04:37 am by Aethelred |
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24HourNut Administrator  Body pillows rock!
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Muhammed sounds like another archaic fanatic.
 The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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Aethelred wrote: The problem with Islam is that Muhammed, who founded it, would by almost any rational standard be considered a part of the radical side of Islam. Perhaps you could provide actual citations for this? His rivals engaged in a war on Medina when Muhammed was offered sanctuary there and yes, people on both sides of the war died. In Muhammed's own words He denies ever wearing a sword until He had to direct the defense of Medina. There He was functioning as sovereign of the city and led the defense. It was Umar who took up the sword to advance Islam some years after the death of Muhammed. Muhammed commanded there should be no compulsion in religion, Quranic citation provided if desired. He actually married Aisha when she was six, but the marriage was not consumated until after she was "of age" by the standards of the culture--had gone through menarche when she was nine. This was also the standard of age measure in France, England, the Papal States, The Holy Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, and Visigothic Spain as well. And yes, there are many good people who follow Islam. If you are interested in an outside analysis of the early days of Muhammed check out H. M. Balyuzi's Muhammed and the Course of Islam, http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Course-Islam-H-Balyuzi/dp/0853984786 Regards, Scott
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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If you are interested in an outside analysis of the early days of Muhammed check out H. M. Balyuzi's Muhammed and the Course of Islam, http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Course-Islam-H-Balyuzi/dp/0853984786 Thank you for the suggestion Scott, but I already own that book. While the author is not Islamic, he is a Baha'i who views his subject through rose-colored glasses. I am sure there are Baha'is who have respect for honest historical research, but there are also a great many Baha'is who bend history to suit the agenda of their religion. In my opinion the author of "Muhammed and the Course of Islam" falls into the latter group.
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Popeyesays wrote: He actually married Aisha when she was six ... What a great way to take away a childhood - make them married before they are old enough to be in the second grade. Archaic BS, not the work of divinity.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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Aethelred wrote: If you are interested in an outside analysis of the early days of Muhammed check out H. M. Balyuzi's Muhammed and the Course of Islam, http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Course-Islam-H-Balyuzi/dp/0853984786 Odd, I found Balyuzi in 1975, and have not seen a bad review of his books by an academic source since. He worked for the Middle Eastern section of BBC for twenty-five years and produced radio-documentaries on Middle Eastern Subjects to the tune of about a thousand such shows. He held a PhD from the London School of Economics with a thesis on Franco-German relations after the First World War. His Masters from the same school was on European relations with the Gulf States. I have purposely avoided any mention of his services to the Baha`i Faith which began early in his life. I'll let the critics deal with his legacy. Regards, Scott
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Popeyesays wrote:He actually married Aisha when she was six ... Frank, you understand that we are talking about the realities of life in the middle of the seventh century AD, right. It helps to take off the "rose-colored glasses" of the twenty-first century when you do that. Agnes-Anna the French princess was married to Alexius II COmnenus (emperor of the Byzantine Empire in the TWELFTH century AD at 8 years of age. That's only one example among many. The Carolingian dynasties for instance ran on child marriages. Personally, I believe that eighteen is a fine distinction between child and adult, but it is no less arbitrary than deciding the issue bassed on first nocturnal emission or menarche. To try to apply a 20-21st century social nicety to the seventh century AD in the middle east is silly. I am reminded of a quote from Shaw's Roman play: "You will have to excuse my friend, he is a barbarian and thinks the customs of his tribe are the laws of the universe." Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Sorry, things like taking away a kid's childhood and kill the non-believer go against what would and should be universal morals and minimum human rights. A divine agent would not subscribe to any text or policy that condones or promotes evil. I don't buy the context BS reasoning, even though I fully understand it. That's how I know things like the Old Testament are not the word of God - they condone and issue guidelines on how to kill your family and enslave kids to be rod-beaten. Sorry Scott, you will have to try it on someone more emotionally needy or brainwashed than me.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Sorry, things like taking away a kid's childhood and kill the non-believer go against what would and should be universal morals and minimum human rights. A divine agent would not subscribe to any text or policy that condones or promotes evil. I don't buy the context BS reasoning, even though I fully understand it. That's how I know things like the Old Testament are not the word of God - they condone and issue guidelines on how to kill your family and enslave kids to be rod-beaten. Sorry Scott, you will have to try it on someone more emotionally needy or brainwashed than me. Misunderstanding the text of the Qur'an is easy to do, Frank. . . . same goes for the Old Testament. Whther you buy the context BS or not, doesn't make it go away. You are actually looking at the institution of marriage with a societal set of blinders. The institution of marriage, anthropoligically, socially, religiously is far more than "LUUUUUUUUUUV". It's an investment in the future society by the people of today. Romance as an excuse for marriage is superficial at the best. Deciding that something as important as the future generations of mankind should depend entirely upon the whim of hormones is . . . . . shall we say, an even more "peculiar institution". The marriage of Aisha to Muhammed cemented relations with the Meccan followers at a time when there was a building dychotomy between them and the relatively new guys on the block - the ansar, or faithful Medinans. Without it the social pressures of the of refuge in Medina may well have built out of control. Aisha as the daughter of Abu Bakr, the leader of the faithful Meccans to Muhammed at the time took that particular social kettle off the burner. Muhammed was a wise leader to see it. The facts are clear, Muhammed was a faithful monogamist husband as long as Kadijah still lived. His only child to survive into adulthood was Kadijah's daughter, Fatima, and the Imamate descends through her children with Ali. He took no other wife til Kadijah was dead. The only wives He took after that were women taken captive in the war, and He routinely married those His followers did not take to wife to save them from a life of drudgery as slaves. Aisha was the only wife He took after Kadijah for whom He showed real affection, and I doubt He would have taken that step without fully conswidering Abu Bakr's concerns. Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Sorry, but because you are OK with things like "kill the non-believer" or buy the context BS doesn't mean it is AOK or that I am incorrect as assessing it as proof of not being divine. I hold divine agents to a higher standard than you, obviously. You can characterize my viewpoint as wrong or a "misunderstanding" but that doesn't negate the validity of my basic point.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Sorry, but because you are OK with things like "kill the non-believer" or buy the context BS doesn't mean it is AOK or that I am incorrect as assessing it as proof of not being divine. I hold divine agents to a higher standard than you, obviously. You can characterize my viewpoint as wrong or a "misunderstanding" but that doesn't negate the validity of my basic point. Not wanting to stir the pot, of course. However your basic point is based on misunderstanding and therefore cannot be valid. It is sort of an historical "poisoned well" and you cannot draw truth from it. Regards, Scott Last edited on 07:34 pm by Popeyesays |
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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Popeyesays wrote: 24HourNut wrote:Sorry, but because you are OK with things like "kill the non-believer" or buy the context BS doesn't mean it is AOK or that I am incorrect as assessing it as proof of not being divine. I hold divine agents to a higher standard than you, obviously. You can characterize my viewpoint as wrong or a "misunderstanding" but that doesn't negate the validity of my basic point. Well, your view is based upon a faulty acceptance of unholy activity and you are in denial about things like the Old Testament obviously not being the world of God. Kill the non-believer is a disqualifier for being divine. Please do not make your emotional needs to accept this material as divine some sort of problem that I have with understanding. You are best to move on, as I am, because it won't matter how many times you accuse me of misunderstanding, you will still be deemed and seen as guilty of buying archaic BS like "kill the non-believer" as something God would issue.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: Popeyesays wrote:24HourNut wrote:Sorry, but because you are OK with things like "kill the non-believer" or buy the context BS doesn't mean it is AOK or that I am incorrect as assessing it as proof of not being divine. I hold divine agents to a higher standard than you, obviously. You can characterize my viewpoint as wrong or a "misunderstanding" but that doesn't negate the validity of my basic point. That's an impasse. I acknowledge it as such. Now how do we move on without occasionally re-opening the wound? We'll just have to live with it. Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator Body pillows rock!
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I don't know. Maybe one day when I fall down the stairs and hit my head hard I will think Loving God had issued instructions on how to kill people and your family if they didn't think certain things or believe the same religion as others.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > A Clash Of Civilizations | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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