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muddawber
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Posted: 10:43 pm

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I have read well over a hundred Christian books dealing with all this. Who do you think has a better grasp on this situation?


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Amy
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Posted: 12:15 am

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muddawber wrote: I have read well over a hundred Christian books dealing with all this. Who do you think has a better grasp on this situation?

so is it your opinion that it's better to find the truth by listening to others opinions? rather than go to the source when available?

It beseemeth you to fix your gaze under all conditions upon justice and fairness.
In The Hidden Words this exalted utterance hath been revealed from Our Most August Pen:

'O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice;
turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee.
By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others,
and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbour. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behoveth thee to be.
Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness.
Set it then before thine eyes.'

They that are just and fair-minded in their judgement occupy a sublime station and hold an exalted rank. The light of piety and uprightness shineth resplendent from these souls.
We earnestly hope that the peoples and countries of the world
may not be deprived of the splendours of these two luminaries.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 36)

Popeyesays
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Posted: 12:17 am

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You cannot sincerely investigate anything if you seek using second-hand words.

Would a Christian seek out the truth about Christianity from what the Pharisees say?

Regards,

Scott

muddawber
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Posted: 12:23 am

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Popeyesays wrote: You cannot sincerely investigate anything if you seek using second-hand words.

Would a Christian seek out the truth about Christianity from what the Pharisees say?

Regards,

Scott

I do go to the source. I read my Bible. But, I also read the Baha'i writings. What I am saying in this thread comes straight from the horses mouth.

As for using second hand words, whose words are you using for investigation? The Baha'u'llah has been dead for how long? You are using his original manuscripts? You are talking directly to him? Come on, give me a break. All yo do is read the books that someone copied and printed, and said this is what the Baha'u'llah said.

But, why don't we go back to the questions in a previous post that I asked, and answer them.

Last edited on 12:31 am by muddawber

Amy
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Posted: 01:28 am

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Hi Mud,

I've been wanting to take some time to answer some of your questions, but will require more than the 5-10 minutes at a time that I usually have at my disposal...

I'm sure one of us will be by when we can. And just so you know, weekends aren't good for me.

muddawber
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Posted: 02:10 am

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Amy wrote: Hi Mud,

I've been wanting to take some time to answer some of your questions, but will require more than the 5-10 minutes at a time that I usually have at my disposal...

I'm sure one of us will be by when we can. And just so you know, weekends aren't good for me.

Fair enough Amy. Please take more than 5 or 10 minutes. I'm looking forward to the answers.

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Posted: 05:06 pm

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Popeyesays
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Posted: 05:16 pm

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muddawber wrote:
No, not two completely different things, Amy. One and the same, what the Baha'i is calling for, and sanctioning. You apparently don't know all that's written.

The world order of the bah'u'llah is not divine in origin, simply because he is not divine in origin.

Just saying, "Humility before God is key, no power seeking allowed", is not going to change things.

"The World Order you are afraid of is created by man." I am not afraid of the NWO. I know it is coming. I know how long it will last. I know the final outcome. I know who will be victorious.

There's a difference you are overlooking, my friend. The world order is ordained by God, not given to us BY God.

Baha's refer to this 'world peace' thing as The LESSER Peace; and we are told that mankind will impose it by themselves. In fact we see it coming to fruition right now. Fear it. Hate it. Agitate against it. It is unavailing to do so. It's a matter of God's will and it cannot be thwarted.

Now how big are the lumps going to be to suffer through? That's up to us.

Is it from God? There is only one test is there not? Time. Time will tell.

Regards,

Scott

Last edited on 05:17 pm by Popeyesays

sirlamre
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Posted: 04:38 am

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Some time ago, a group of people railed and complained and warned against just such a thing as everyone getting together and forming ONE government in an area where there wasn't one government in place.

A small percentage of the population of that area spent years agitating and complaining, saying that this was something that wasn't going to work, would cause all manner of evils to occur and would be one of the worst possible things that anyone could decide to do.

They railed and complained about how everyone would lose their freedoms, be controlled by the people in charge, that no one would have any say any longer, that decisions would get made by other people.

As has always been the case in human history, the natural tendency of humans to organize themselves into bigger groups in larger areas did in fact win out.

What was it these people were so incredibly opposed to?
What was it they unsuccessfully fought against?

These people railed and complained and warned against the "evil effects" of the creation of

The Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and far more than anything else

they all fought LONG AND HARD against the Constutition of the United States of America!!!!

Those people in the 1700s sounded EXACTLY like and said many of the same things as the people today who rail and whine and complain about what has for TEN THOUSAND YEARS, been a NATURAL tendency of human beings.

Were they wrong?

Is America a good thing?

Are we glad to BE Americans?

YOU decide whether you want to be a conspiracy theorist, frightened of every change that comes along, pessimistic of everything, against everything that comes along.

Or you decide whether you would have been a PATRIOTIC American in the 1700s.

Your call.

Last edited on 04:41 am by sirlamre

Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions can in no wise alarm me.

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Posted: 04:52 am

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sirlamre wrote: Some time ago, a group of people railed and complained and warned against just such a thing as everyone getting together and forming ONE government in an area where there wasn't one government in place.

A small percentage of the population of that area spent years agitating and complaining, saying that this was something that wasn't going to work, would cause all manner of evils to occur and would be one of the worst possible things that anyone could decide to do.

They railed and complained about how everyone would lose their freedoms, be controlled by the people in charge, that no one would have any say any longer, that decisions would get made by other people.

As has always been the case in human history, the natural tendency of humans to organize themselves into bigger groups in larger areas did in fact win out.

What was it these people were so incredibly opposed to?
What was it they unsuccessfully fought against?

These people railed and complained and warned against the "evil effects" of the creation of

The Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and far more than anything else

they all fought LONG AND HARD against the Constutition of the United States of America!!!!

Those people in the 1700s sounded EXACTLY like and said many of the same things as the people today who rail and whine and complain about what has for TEN THOUSAND YEARS, been a NATURAL tendency of human beings.

Were they wrong?

Is America a good thing?

Are we glad to BE Americans?

YOU decide whether you want to be a conspiracy theorist, frightened of every change that comes along, pessimistic of everything, against everything that comes along.

Or you decide whether you would have been a PATRIOTIC American in the 1700s.

Your call.

America use to be a better thing.....we're losing the good part about America fast!

Yes, I'm glad to be American........that's why I'm willing to fight to keep it!!

I want to look at every change, and how it can affect our country. When it's obvious it's a change for the worse, you bet I'll be against it!

I can say, I don't know how obvious the facts were back then. I'd call myself a patriotic American now. And I don't want a one world government.

Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS!

muddawber
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Posted: 05:27 am

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sirlamre wrote: Some time ago, a group of people railed and complained and warned against just such a thing as everyone getting together and forming ONE government in an area where there wasn't one government in place.

A small percentage of the population of that area spent years agitating and complaining, saying that this was something that wasn't going to work, would cause all manner of evils to occur and would be one of the worst possible things that anyone could decide to do.

They railed and complained about how everyone would lose their freedoms, be controlled by the people in charge, that no one would have any say any longer, that decisions would get made by other people.

As has always been the case in human history, the natural tendency of humans to organize themselves into bigger groups in larger areas did in fact win out.

What was it these people were so incredibly opposed to?
What was it they unsuccessfully fought against?

These people railed and complained and warned against the "evil effects" of the creation of

The Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and far more than anything else

they all fought LONG AND HARD against the Constutition of the United States of America!!!!

Those people in the 1700s sounded EXACTLY like and said many of the same things as the people today who rail and whine and complain about what has for TEN THOUSAND YEARS, been a NATURAL tendency of human beings.

Were they wrong?

Is America a good thing?

Are we glad to BE Americans?

YOU decide whether you want to be a conspiracy theorist, frightened of every change that comes along, pessimistic of everything, against everything that comes along.

Or you decide whether you would have been a PATRIOTIC American in the 1700s.

Your call.

And this has exactly what to do with this topic? With this New/One World Order, the Bill of Rights, The Constitution, and all the rest of our laws will be a thing of the past.

Brian
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Posted: 07:54 am

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sirlamre wrote: Some time ago, a group of people railed and complained and warned against just such a thing as everyone getting together and forming ONE government in an area where there wasn't one government in place.

A small percentage of the population of that area spent years agitating and complaining, saying that this was something that wasn't going to work, would cause all manner of evils to occur and would be one of the worst possible things that anyone could decide to do.

They railed and complained about how everyone would lose their freedoms, be controlled by the people in charge, that no one would have any say any longer, that decisions would get made by other people.

As has always been the case in human history, the natural tendency of humans to organize themselves into bigger groups in larger areas did in fact win out.
Sirlamre:

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, nor have I ever been opposed to the United Nations (except insofar as that it's about as impotent as a 90 year-old man with ice down his pants). But there's a serious problem with your analysis: Humans have, in fact, always gathered themselves together in ever-larger groups, but such groupings have always been to protect themselves from other humans. A one-world government would be the equivalent of a football team that contained every player in the league. There'd be only one point to it: To subjugate all of humankind. (If you aren't protecting yourself from external enemies, you're inventing internal ones.)

Even if such a government could somehow be formed, it would dissolve into civil war almost immediately, because someone, somewhere isn't going to be satisfied with their deal. Far from guaranteeing world peace, a one-world government would in fact usher in perpetual civil war.

A world government might be a noble idea, but it's a very bad one. It can never succeed.

What might succeed is a world body like the U.N., but with actual teeth. Let the member countries keep their sovereignty, but if one of the member nations starts stirring up sh*t, the other nations team up and beat its ass. That might work, if the treaties are worded correctly and incentives are given for compliance.

"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."

-- "A Long December", Counting Crows

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Posted: 04:35 pm

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"What might succeed is a world body like the U.N., but with actual teeth. Let the member countries keep their sovereignty, but if one of the member nations starts stirring up sh*t, the other nations team up and beat its ass. That might work, if the treaties are worded correctly and incentives are given for compliance."

Precisely!

All nations retain only the military force required to defend territory and maintain order. Anyone who invades another countray gets crushed by the cooperation of all the other nations.

Things get pushed back to status quo ante bellum, and the world authority straightens out the mess.

Regards,
Scott

Brian
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Posted: 08:31 pm

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Popeyesays wrote: All nations retain only the military force required to defend territory and maintain order.
:foul:

"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last."

-- "A Long December", Counting Crows


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Posted: 11:48 pm

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Brian wrote: Popeyesays wrote: All nations retain only the military force required to defend territory and maintain order.
:foul:

Nope. That's precisely the kind of thing that won't work. How're you going to convince a sovereign nation to give up part of its military? The key to any workable military agreement is that each nation gets to keep what they have. No nation would agree to reduce its armaments sufficiently to simply defend territory and maintain order. And even if they did, what would the point of that be? A nation so disarmed isn't much help in a global confrontation.

The key to anything like this working is each nation retaining sovereignty. That means making their own internal laws, and not having an external body impose laws.

You might think of something like the Articles of Confederation as a model. The idea would be to band together for mutual defense, rather than to have some kind of federalist structure.

1) Nations CAN rise above simple self-interest. We've seen it. Staying above sel-interest is the problem. By reducing armaments to show good faith it can be done.

2) If nations reduce defenses, and each nation contributes to the defense of pact members there will be enough force to restore the borders of any nations.

3) No one is saying that sovereignty musy be surrendered. In fact sovereignty is guaranteed.

4) The Articles failed. Why duplicate failure?

Regards,

Scott

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