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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > Do you have a " Different Jesus'? |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member 
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Magenta flame wrote:
Yep, He was also God manifest in the flesh as the Bible teaches... Do you have a different Jesus? Context, context friends...  Last edited on 04:33 am by JustifiedByFaith  Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation 
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: sirlamre wrote: I understand the theological point that Jesus was the sinless one and took on our sins. Here's the point I don't grok: In order for Jesus to take on sin for us He also was to be separated from God to be that sin for us. This doesn't make sense to me. How can you be separated from yourself? It violates the law of identity. An entity can't be "A" and "not A" at the same time. Either he wasn't god (in which case the monologues in the garden and on the cross make sense) or he wasn't, in which case there are some serious internal inconsistencies with the text. I actually don't think it's necessary for Jesus to be God to fulfill the task of savior. What seems to be required is a) sinlessness, and b) sacrifice. God could easily heap the sins of all humanity on Jesus w/o Jesus actually being God. One of the perks of being omnipotent is you can do anything you please. Put another way: What are the necessary consequences if Jesus isn't God? I don't see anything here that God (being omnipotent) couldn't make happen with a strictly human person. Yes, that person would presumably have to be sinless, but I assume God could arrange that.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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Magenta flame Guest
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: sirlamre wrote: no, I'm not mormon, That post is not a key point it is rambling. "He who was the only one who is sinless became sin for us." that does not require discernment, it's just a load of gobbledigoop. YOu wish to confuse the novice, so as to appear wonderous and spiritual. You need to tell people you have something they don't, but in the end you wind up knowing nothing but codswallop. It's a times indefinite trick. But if it works to convince yourself then so be it. You speak in twists and turns and then tell everybody they do not have discernment or understanding or study. For heavens sake !
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member
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bhartman35 wrote:JustifiedByFaith wrote:sirlamre wrote: There is very little that makes sense to us about Him 35. remeber, the lawmaker can also be the lawbreaker. Jesus turning plain water into wine not only breaks a natural law but shows us who He is...(God). The creator can also alter His creation for His purposes.The bible says in Colossians regarding Jesus that "All things were made by Him and for Him". This gives Him complete access to His creation.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member
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Magenta flame wrote:
Hmmm...
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: bhartman35 wrote: Hi, JBF. I'm not sure that turning water into wine shows us who He is, really. Remember, Moses parted the Red Sea, which is a little more impressive, IMHO. Various other people have also performed miracles. It's not so much the miracles that are the issue, but whose power is being utilized. As far as rules go, sure, if He's God, He can break almost any laws. I don't see how one can break an existential law, though. Here's an example: Can God die? Can God do evil? Can He lie? Obviously, there are some things that He can't do, just by nature of who He is. (I don't know how that squares with omnipotence, but let's assume for the moment that there's no contradiction there.) That brings us to the crux of the issue, I think: Can god be not God? If Jesus was completely divorced from God while here on Earth (as those passages suggest) was He god while He was here? And if not, who was running the show, so to speak?
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member
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bhartman35 A understanding of the deity of Jesus is critical. Colossians chapters 1 & 2 give us many valuable insights... "For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:9 Everyhting that the Father has so does the Son. They are the same. Jesus said to Thomas, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father also." This is how Isaiah can can call Jesus name: Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. This is what Emanuel means: God with us. Let's not confuse the simplicity that's in Christ.
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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Thank you JBF. That helps ME understand a little better. When I read what you just wrote, it's hard to understand how Jesus could NOT be God. The concept is hard to understand.....but the words seem pretty clear!
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Brian Grand Poobah of Moderation
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: bhartman35 Hi, JBF. The Colossians quote is interesting, but we already knew what the disciples' story was, right? Jesus' quote to Thomas doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus and God are one in the same. It could be that Jesus is so like god (i.e., holy) as to be indistinguishable to humans. I recognize that the issue I'm asking about might be beyond the realm of evidence, and into the realm of faith. I'm not so much trying to ask who you think Jesus is as I'm trying to identify the theological answer (according to Christians) as to how Jesus could say those things in Gethsemene and on the cross, if he was who the disciples all claim he was (and, indeed, he seems to claim, in spots). I can definitely see places where, as you point out, Jesus is upheld as God. I'm just having trouble reconciling that guy with the guy on the Cross and in Gethsemene.
"It's been a long December, and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last." -- "A Long December", Counting Crows |
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member
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bhartman35 wrote:JustifiedByFaith wrote:bhartman35 Fair enough 35. I have shared what I was able to obtain at this time...will talk later. God Bless You 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member  Official Forum Heretic
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"It could be that Jesus is so like god (i.e., holy) as to be indistinguishable to humans." This is precisely the Baha'i 'take' on the matter--- that Jesus is NOT God Himself--- --but is so close to God as to be far beyond human ability to understand or perceive the difference. And that we may well consider Him to be God, for all intents and purposes, because it is beyond our ability to discern the difference. "Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine." And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance, "I am the Messenger of God," He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 53)" and The hour is approaching when ye will witness the power of the one true God triumphing over all created things and the signs of His sovereignty encompassing all creation. On that day ye will discover how all else besides Him will have been forgotten and come to be regarded as utter nothingness. It should, however, be borne in mind that God and His Manifestation can, under no circumstances, be dissociated from the loftiness and sublimity which They inherently possess. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 72) and It is the veil of idle imaginations which, in the days of the Manifestations of the Unity of God and the Day Springs of His everlasting glory, hath intervened, and will continue to intervene, between them and the rest of mankind. For in those days, He Who is the Eternal Truth manifesteth Himself in conformity with that which He Himself hath purposed, and not according to the desires and expectations of men. Even as He hath revealed: "So oft, then, as an Apostle cometh to you with that which your souls desire not, do ye swell with pride, and treat some as impostors, and slay others." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 82) Last edited on 12:19 am by sirlamre |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Heretic
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And for those who are not veiled from it by idle imaginations (see previous quote), here is the reality that awaits that "true believer" "It is clear and evident that when the veils that conceal the realities of the manifestations of the Names and Attributes of God, nay of all created things visible or invisible, have been rent asunder, nothing except the Sign of God will remain -- a sign which He, Himself, hath placed within these realities. This sign will endure as long as is the wish of the Lord thy God, the Lord of the heavens and of the 141 earth. If such be the blessings conferred on all created things, how superior must be the destiny of the true believer, whose existence and life are to be regarded as the originating purpose of all creation. Just as the conception of faith hath existed from the beginning that hath no beginning, and will endure till the end that hath no end, in like manner will the true believer eternally live and endure. His spirit will everlastingly circle round the Will of God. He will last as long as God, Himself, will last. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 140)"
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
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I think it is interesting (and telling) to look at how other religions deal with Jesus. Baha'u'llah sees Jesus (and himself along with Moses, Abraham, Muhammed, Krishna and others by the way) as being almost God. He says that while Jesus was not really God, He was not being dishonest when He said that He was God. Baha'u'llah says that we humans are not smart enough to understand the difference between God and almost God. Muhammed (who Baha'u'llah tells us was also almost God) never claimed to be either God or almost God. Muhammed claimed to be the "last and greatest" prophet of God and taught that Jesus was also a prophet, bet a lesser one than himself. Under Islamic law, the statments made by Jesus would have gotten Him killed (as they did in His own day) because of the clear claims He made stating that He was God. Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM." He understood what He was saying as did those where were there when He said it as they tried to stone Him for saying "I AM." I AM is a title used only by God Himself. Jesus allowed others to worship Him as God. Thomas once said to Jesus that He was "My Lord and my God," Jesus did not correct him. Writing of Jesus, John said: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." The Jesus of Islam is just a prophet, the Jesus of teh Baha'i Faith is almost God. In the Bible Jesus is God incarnate, the Creator of the universe. The Jesus of the Bible was not created by God, He was God the Creator. The Jesus of Islam and the Baha'i Faith is NOT the Jesus of the Bible, he does not forgive sins and he does not save lost humans. When you are confronted with some other faith, ask these questions: -Do you believe Jesus was God in the flesh? -Did Jesus die for my sins? -Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? -Should I worship Jesus as God? If they don't answer yes to all of them, their faith is not of God. -
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Heretic
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We've already discussed the twofold nature of the Manifestation --- --that the Divine Spirit that WAS Jesus does in fact meet ALL your criteria... but that the human body of Christ born to Mary is NOT that same Divine Spirit. That Divine Spirit IS the Creator of the Universe, IS God incarnate, etc Aethelred wrote: I think it is interesting (and telling) to look at how other religions deal with Jesus.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Heretic
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