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24HourForums.com > The Top 10 Supported Forums > 24's Religion & Philosophy > The Official Christianity vs Baha'i Topic! |
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24HourNut Administrator  aka Frank
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JustifiedByFaith wrote: I agree God is Absolute Truth but what about Jesus saying that He is the Truth and that we shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set us free? Someone believing in Jesus or what was written that Jesus said is not the criteria for absolute truth, or any truth at all. That is just one set of text that you happen to believe in. Nothing necessarily or innately true about it besides it being true that you've chosen to believe it - similar to how you would have chosen something else if you had been born in a different time and place. Others who were born into other religions don't know the absolute truth anymore than you do. None of the 38,000+ Christian sects know the truth any more than the other sect or religion or person. That is why it is called faith, not fact for all. People who treat their faith as fact for all are either fanatical or delusional to some degree in my view.
 The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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BruceDLimber Original500© Member  (a Baha'i who loves to sing!)
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24HourNut wrote: People who treat their faith as fact for all are either fanatical or delusional to some degree in my view. Which clearly ignores the possibility of any faiths' being true and factual! I believe the standard fallacy is known as "Contempt Before Investigation." Peace, Bruce
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BruceDLimber Original500© Member (a Baha'i who loves to sing!)
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[Friends, sorry for the delay in responding to things! I'm unable to do so at work because of the firewalls there, and so am playing catch-up to an extent. Also, please note that I'll be away on vacation (and therefore offline) starting soon.] JustifiedByFaith wrote: Popeyesays wrote: And the Baha'i Faith quite adequately accounts for this, IMHO!: We Baha'is teach that all the major religions of the world are divine in origin, sent by God as stages in a single divine plan. (There is only one Faith, the Faith of God.) A Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God. In the Baha'i scriptures, it's expressed like this: {161}t is evident ...that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!" For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the [river] of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'an, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus."... Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but one." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same... {162}It is clear and evident ... that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He verily speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact... {191}We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. "No distinction do We make between any of them." The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit." {192}It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same. {193}It hath ever been evident that all these divergences of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been and are applicable to those Essences of being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the divine Being. {194}Viewed in the light of their second station - the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards, - they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: "I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you." {195}From these incontrovertible and fully demonstrated statements strive thou to apprehend the meaning of the questions thou hast asked, that thou mayest become steadfast in the Faith of God, and not be dismayed by the divergences in the utterances of His Prophets and Chosen Ones. {196}Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!" And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance: "I am the Messenger of God," He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth... For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: "We are the servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man's heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way. (The Book of Certitude, pages 152-154, 176-180) [end quote] Best, :-) Bruce
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24HourNut Administrator aka Frank
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BruceDLimber wrote: 24HourNut wrote:People who treat their faith as fact for all are either fanatical or delusional to some degree in my view. Hi Bruce.  There are too many inherent and innate problems with that type of system (text-based, multiple exist, one is right, others missed out) to make it reasonable to assume that one should be deemed as having God's real story. In addition, your position assumes that it is possible that most people, or an incredible amount of people, were always going to "not get it right" and be born into a religion that does "not get it right" because God's plan was to have that kind of a ridiculous set up. If you want to assume that one religion has it right and that is how the whole divine system was set up, be my guest. But I am not guilty of "Contempt Before Investigation." I am being reasonable. You want to assume a crappy magical plan from God that resulted in nothing but conflict and confusion since day one, not to mention be the great fueler of everything from slavery to war. You may be guilty of "Praying Before Investigation." Also, all those people so convinced in their faith ... there is no difference, as far as they know, between them and the ones that "got it right." You can't even TELL if you've got it right. So even if there is just one group that is right - they are still guilty of the same delusion or fanaticism. Which gets back to my original comment: People who treat their faith as fact for all are either fanatical or delusional to some degree in my view.
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. 109.001 YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith! PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers! SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers! 109.002 YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship, PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship; SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve, 109.003 YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship. PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship. SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: 109.004 YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship. SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, 109.005 YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship. PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship. SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: 109.006 YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine. PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. --------------------------------------- One of the shortest Surahs of the Qur'an. Here's an excerpt from a noted commentary explaining the incidents surrounding the revelation of the Surah: "Said bin Mina (the freed slave of Abul Bakhtari) has related that Walid bin Mughirah, As bin Wail, Aswad bin al-Muttalib and Umayyah bin Khalaf met the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) and said to him:"O Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings), let us agree that we would worship your God and you would worship our gods, and we would make you a partner in all our works. If what you have brought was better than what we possess, we would be partners in it with You, and have our share in it, and if what we possess is better than what you have brought, you would be partner in it with us and have your share of it."At this Allah sent down: Qul ya-ayyuhal-kafirun (Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Hisham also has related this incident in the Sirah). " Regards, Scott
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member  NON-PC!!
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Popeyesays wrote:
Popeye, isn't this what Christians and Bahai's have been saying to one another all along? I don't see where this proves either one as valid over the other....... Or am I missing your point?
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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My point was that we make our choices and God sorts it out--eventually. In other words, "Brìgh gach cluiche gu dheireadh. (Don't judge a game til it's over)". Oh, the original quote from holy text is from Islam, the Qur'an. The little quote above is Gaelic. Yes, my mother's mother used Gaelic-mostly "sayings" in her day to day speech. She finally passed away at 9 suffering, unfortunately from dementia and the only thing she spoke anymore was Gaelic. Regards, Scott Last edited on 07:01 pm by Popeyesays |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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Popeyesays wrote: My point was that we make our choices and God sorts it out--eventually. In other words, "Brìgh gach cluiche gu dheireadh. (Don't judge a game til it's over)". You're right.........and I think that's the point the Christians and Bahia's have been saying all along too. When we're coming round the finish line and cross, then and only then, will we truly know for sure who won ............
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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Baha`is would not consider it a race, or a context since judgment come to each alone. "WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men. 2 Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise. 3 Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom. " Regards, Scott
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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The finish line, was a figure of speech popeye! The race is conducted any way you want to conduct it........... As far as man looking forward to a Heavenly place, I think it's more man appreciating that which our God has for us. Man tries to honor the Lord because he loves and appreciates everything he has done for us......... that's the way I look at it anyway! I don't fear fire over paradise! I already know I'll make wrong choices and screw up. I'm human! My God forgives my human behavior because I love him, not because I act like him...............
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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foxglovepress wrote: The finish line, was a figure of speech popeye! The race is conducted any way you want to conduct it........... I agree completely, if God is infinite justice, He is also infinite Mercy. So, I'll leave my worries behind and trust instead. Regards, Scott
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24HourNut Administrator aka Frank
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I agree completely, if God is infinite justice, He is also infinite Mercy Infinite mercy? Even when you are stuck in Hell for all eternity due to "sinning" or being born into a different religion than one that recognizes Jesus as supernatural?
The best human beings start good new topics and vote on the better posts. |
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foxglovepress Forum-Blogger© Original500© Member NON-PC!!
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24HourNut wrote: I agree completely, if God is infinite justice, He is also infinite Mercy  Oh boy.............
Justice for Mark.....Imprison Employers Who Hire ILLEGALS! |
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Popeyesays Guardian1000© Member
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24HourNut wrote: I agree completely, if God is infinite justice, He is also infinite Mercy I don't believe nor does my faith teach that "hell" is a place, much less a duration of time. So-infinite mercy? Absolutely, yes. From The Arabic Hidden Words: #66 O CHILDREN OF THE DIVINE AND INVISIBLE ESSENCE! Ye shall be hindered from loving Me and souls shall be perturbed as they make mention of Me. For minds cannot grasp Me nor hearts contain Me. #67 O SON OF BEAUTY! By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice. #68 O CHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory. ----------------------------------------- Draw a deep breath and ponderf the source of the oxygen in your lungs, then ponder the infinite mercy of God that the air is here to breathe, the humidity is such that you can benefit from that breath, that the temprature is neither boiloing nor freezing, that a world exists where your feet may find purchase, and the nourishment both physical and spiritual which surrounds you. Did you provide those things for yourself? Regards, Scott
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Searching The Hearts Of Man
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