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BruceDLimber
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Posted: 04-20-2007 02:16 pm

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sumnom wrote: Alcohol is an important part of many religious ceremonies. These ceremonies are suppose to please gods, not depress them.

Save that such practices change from Age to Age when God reveals new religions, as many people have noted.

"You have heard it said of old . . ."

"But I say unto thee . . ."

(Exemplum gratium.)

Regards,

Bruce


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Posted: 04-20-2007 02:17 pm

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Bruce D. Limber wrote: Sure, if you want to base your life on 3,000-year-old law long since viewed as superceded by most people. . . .

Hi Bruce, this confuses me. How do you know which guidelines are not for today? Is the entire Bible not for today? I am not sure by what means you are "cherrypicking" what parts of the Bible are for today or not.

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Posted: 04-20-2007 02:43 pm

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Bruce D. Limber wrote:

Save that such practices change from Age to Age when God reveals new religions...

:please:

Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you."

Matthew 24:4

BruceDLimber
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Posted: 04-20-2007 02:55 pm

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24HourNut wrote: Bruce D. Limber wrote: Sure, if you want to base your life on 3,000-year-old law long since viewed as superceded by most people. . . .
Hi Bruce, this confuses me. How do you know which guidelines are not for today? Is the entire Bible not for today? I am not sure by what means you are "cherrypicking" what parts of the Bible are for today or not.

Hi.

This really isn't "cherrypicking."

In the Baha'i view, there are two sorts of revealed Law:

Spiritual teachings are permanent and unchanging from Age to Age and religion to religion (though sometimes expressed in different wordings. Examples are "there is a God," "you're here for a purpose," "don't murder," etc.
Social teachings, in contrast, are INTENTIONALLY temporary and may be altered or revoked by any later Divine Messenger (though not by us). Examples include laws of fasting and prayer, dietary laws, administration, marriage and burial laws, and so on.

So in the case we're discussing, this is a social law and as such is/was subject to alteration: the fact that one Age may allow something doesn't imply that another Age will also, or vice versa.

As I've pointed out before, in addition to Jesus' abrogating Jewish laws about the Sabbath, while both Christian and Muslim scriptures permitted slavery, the Baha'i scriptures prohibit it (this at a time when many Christians still endorsed it).

The Baha'i scriptures, which number around 200 volumes, contain a full set of new social laws, and it is these upon which we endeavor to base our lives and practices, not any other, earlier standard.

Thus from our view, none of this is really an issue: if God says "Don't," that's pretty much the end of the story.

Peace,

Bruce

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Posted: 04-20-2007 02:59 pm

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Understood, Bruce. But what do your Social Teaching say about these items? Can your Social Teachings change as new information becomes available?

1 - What if it was scientifically proven that caffeine can be more harmful than a glass of wine with dinner? Would your scriptures have to be updated or would caffeine continue to be condoned?

2 - So you are saying that ALL of the Social Teachings of the Bible, such as it being OK to consume alcohol (which is in-line with modern freedom standards by the way), are to be replaced by your faith?

3 - What about medical marijuana? How does that fit into your Teachings?

4 - Why does God condone the eating of terrible foods, like McDonalds, packaged processed junk, etc. that science can show cause more damage (obesity, disease, etc.) than marijuana or a glass of wine with dinner?

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Posted: 04-20-2007 05:22 pm

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Save that such practices change from Age to Age when God reveals new religions, as many people have noted.

Bruce, "many people" here would mean Baha'is, right?

Alcohol is used and even consumed in the present day in more than a few religious ceremonies. I do not think Catholics believe that eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ are acts that sadden their god.

As an advocate of the notion of progressive revelation, do you consider Catholicism and its associated practices no longer appropriate for the current age?

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Posted: 04-20-2007 05:29 pm

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Can your Social Teachings change as new information becomes available?

This is an interesting question, Frank.

If my understanding of Baha'i thought is correct, the answer would be yes and no. The teachings can change but only when there is a new divinve manifestation who could provide legitimate teachings. Until that time there is no one with the spiritual authority to alter that which has been divinely releaved.

How did I do, Bruce?

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Posted: 04-20-2007 05:33 pm

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I don't understand how Christians can drink alcohol without angering or saddening their God, yet Baha'is claim they are not in conflict with Christianity. Obviously the Christians think their religion and rules are for today.

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BruceDLimber
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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:33 pm

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Hi!

24HourNut wrote:
Can your Social Teachings change as new information becomes available?

1 - What if it was scientifically proven that caffeine can be more harmful than a glass of wine with dinner? Would your scriptures have to be updated or would caffeine continue to be condoned?

2 - So you are saying that ALL of the Social Teachings of the Bible, such as it being OK to consume alcohol (which is in-line with modern freedom standards by the way), are to be replaced by your faith?

3 - What about medical marijuana? How does that fit into your Teachings?

4 - Why does God condone the eating of terrible foods, like McDonalds, packaged processed junk, etc. that science can show cause more damage (obesity, disease, etc.) than marijuana or a glass of wine with dinner?

Anything in our scriptures is fixed until the next Divine Messenger comes, which won't be any time soon.

Anything else is up to the House of Justice, which can issue decrees as it sees fit, and can later alter or abolish its own decisions (though it can't alter our scriptures).

As to the rest, much is an anachronism as you're referring to scriptures written before these things existed.

Anything the Baha'i scriptures address is updated, yes. Anything they don't can probably stand unless and until the House decides to address it.

This includes caffeine: if it is definitely proven harmful, the House can restrict it as appropriate.

And as to medical marijuana, another of our laws is obedience to government, so this isn't an issue for us, either.

Peace,

Bruce

Last edited on 04-20-2007 07:43 pm by BruceDLimber

BruceDLimber
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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:38 pm

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sumnom wrote: B>Save that such practices change from Age to Age when God reveals new religions, as many people have noted.

Bruce, "many people" here would mean Baha'is, right?

Alcohol is used and even consumed in the present day in more than a few religious ceremonies. I do not think Catholics believe that eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ are acts that sadden their god.

As an advocate of the notion of progressive revelation, do you consider Catholicism and its associated practices no longer appropriate for the current age?

No, by "many people" I specifically meant, for example, Christians, who obviously believe many Jewish laws are abrogated. Ditto Muslims who view Christian rules as no longer in effect.

Nor am I addressing what other groups do and don't believe because none of that affects what we beleive.

And as I've already said quite clearly several times, we Baha'is base our beliefs and practices on what the Baha'i scriptures say, and believe this is what is appropriate today.

Regards,

Bruce

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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:40 pm

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sumnom wrote: F>Can your Social Teachings change as new information becomes available?

This is an interesting question, Frank.

If my understanding of Baha'i thought is correct, the answer would be yes and no. The teachings can change but only when there is a new divinve manifestation who could provide legitimate teachings. Until that time there is no one with the spiritual authority to alter that which has been divinely releaved.

How did I do, Bruce?

Fine, with the reminder that anything not in our scriptures is at the continuing discreation of the House of Justice, our supreme elected administrative body. It can both create and cancel its own laws.

Regards,

Bruce

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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:42 pm

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Bruce D. Limber wrote:

Hi!

24HourNut wrote:
Can your Social Teachings change as new information becomes available?

1 - What if it was scientifically proven that caffeine can be more harmful than a glass of wine with dinner? Would your scriptures have to be updated or would caffeine continue to be condoned?

2 - So you are saying that ALL of the Social Teachings of the Bible, such as it being OK to consume alcohol (which is in-line with modern freedom standards by the way), are to be replaced by your faith?

3 - What about medical marijuana? How does that fit into your Teachings?

4 - Why does God condone the eating of terrible foods, like McDonalds, packaged processed junk, etc. that science can show cause more damage (obesity, disease, etc.) than marijuana or a glass of wine with dinner?

Anything in our scriptures is fixed until the next Divine Messenger comes, which won't be any time soon.

Anything else is up to the House of Justice, which can issue decrees as it sees fit, and can later alter or abolish its own decisions (though it can't alter our scriptures).

As to the rest, much is an anachronism as you're referring to scriptures written before these things existed.

Anything the Baha'i scriptures address is updated, yes. Anything they don't can probably stand unless and until the House decides to address it.

And as to medical marijuana, another of our laws is obedience to government, so this isn't an issue for us, either.

Peace,

Bruce

Hi,

I am not clear on something. So if it was scientifically proven today that caffeine (and/or other currently condoned substances) can be more harmful than a glass of wine with dinner, what would that mean according to your faith, specifically? Would then claim that God would get sad or angry if I consumed caffeine, or would it still be OK while wine isn't, even though it can be more harmful?

But marijuana is legal in some places and illegal in others - medical or not. According to your faith, does God get angry or sad according to where you smoke it and how legal it is and what type? I'm confused.

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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:43 pm

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Bruce D. Limber wrote: sumnom wrote: F>Can your Social Teachings change as new information becomes available?

This is an interesting question, Frank.

If my understanding of Baha'i thought is correct, the answer would be yes and no. The teachings can change but only when there is a new divinve manifestation who could provide legitimate teachings. Until that time there is no one with the spiritual authority to alter that which has been divinely releaved.

How did I do, Bruce?

Fine, with the reminder that anything not in our scriptures is at the continuing discreation of the House of Justice, our supreme elected administrative body. It can both create and cancel its own laws.

Regards,

Bruce

You mean some people in the House of Justice can determine that God would be sad or angry at the use of a given thing or substance that wasn't previously thought of or addressed? How can they know this? They can obviously be wrong as they don't actually speak for God...

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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:47 pm

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No, Frank; we're talking about two different laws here:

Alcohol and recreational drugs are prohibited for Baha'is regardless of whether they're allowed by a given civil government.

And if a civil government does ban something, then we're duty bound to obey it.

This latter rule also applies, please note, in cases where certain governments have banned the Baha'i Faith itself: while we still won't deny our Faith (this is something no government has the right to control), we otherwise obey government decrees (like not electing assemblies, for example).

Regards,

Bruce


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Posted: 04-20-2007 07:49 pm

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Bruce D. Limber wrote: No, Frank; we're talking about two different laws here:

Alcohol and recreational drugs are prohibited for Baha'is regardless of whether they're allowed by a given civil government.

And if a civil government does ban something, then we're duty bound to obey it.

This latter rule also applies, please note, in cases where certain governments have banned the Baha'i Faith itself: while we still won't deny our Faith (this is something no government has the right to control), we otherwise obey government decrees (like not electing assemblies, for example).

Regards,

Bruce

Thanks for clarifying. If I understand this now, that means that where medical marijuana is legal, God doesn't get angry or sad, right? That's not recreational or against the law so that's how I took what you said.

I am also not getting why substances more harmful than some recreational drugs wouldn't be prohibited.

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