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24HourForums.com > Supported Forums > Brian's Science & Nature Shack > Evolution (used to be "Reasons the Jews do not accept the Messiah") |
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sumnom Original500© Member 
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Is this yet another "Baha'i v. Chrisitianity" thread? Yes.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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sumnom wrote: Is this yet another "Baha'i v. Chrisitianity" thread? I fail to see how that is, when BOTH religions agree that the Jews didn't understand who Christ was... ..all we're doing here is discussing why and how that happened...
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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"The people who wrote the signs of the Messiah's coming meant for it to be taken literally." Hmm.. I'm not sure about what the writers of those verses thought they meant-- But Jesus very clearly did not do _literally_ what the Jews expected--- He didn't instantly become the literal physical King of Israel, immediately evicting Herod from the throne, and evicting the Roman governor He didn't instantly start a physical and literal war with the Roman Army and WIN that war in conventional ways of thinking, such that there was no longer a Roman presence in Israel. Yes, the crowd laughingly taunted Him calling Him the King of the Jews --- but this was in no way a 'real' meaning to them that He was their King-- if the crowd had decided that He was REALLY their King, they would have not allowed the Romans to crucify Him (at least until the Roman Army showed up in force sufficient to execute everyone in the crowd along with Jesus.) So if the original writers were intending that a physical literal interpretation was to be placed upon those verses, then the question is: Were they just as wrong in what they THOUGHT God had inspired them to write? Or is it possible that the writers of the OT verses KNEW that Jesus would symbolically and spiritually accomplish all those things: Defeat the Romans through the teaching efforts of the Christians and conversion to His Faith? Become the King of not only Israel but of (so far) slightly less than half the world through being the King of the hearts and souls of men, even if those men had material and physical kings ruling their bodies? I rather think that the writers of those verses knew perfectly well that Jesus would do these things in the way He has, rather than in the far more literal physical way that the Jews of the day over-simplified and over-literalized the OT verses about Jesus 1st coming...
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Jesus...above every other name
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sirlamre wrote: sumnom wrote:Is this yet another "Baha'i v. Chrisitianity" thread? I agree with you sirlamre. It does not change the fact in any way that Jesus is the Messiah. Regardless of the blindness in part on the Jewish people or other opinions as to why they did not acknowlege Him.
 Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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pmh1nic Pioneer100© Member 
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Brian "On top of that, the Gospel story always struck me as the story of a man who got in over his head, in a certain sense. "Oh, God, why have you forsaken me?" seems to be a pretty big indicator that things didn't go exactly according to plan." If Jesus lifeless body was still in the tomb I'd agree with you. It's not. A major aspect (mysterious in some sense) of His suffering and death for the sins of the world relates to His becoming sin for us and being forsaken by the Father.
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sumnom Original500© Member
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Last edited on 02:40 am by sumnom |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member  Ye Olde Dead King
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sumnom wrote: Is this yet another "Baha'i v. Chrisitianity" thread? I see this thread as another attempt by the Baha'is to prove (to themselves I assume) that because many Jewish people have rejected Jesus and most Christians reject Baha'u'llah, the it is only logical to assume that Baha'u'llah was who he claimed to be. However, that logic does not flow very well. It is like saying: Joe didn't buy Microsoft stock in the early 80s because he believed that the company would fail and Microsoft ended up being a great stock. Fred is not buying Acmetech stock today because he thinks the company will go under. Thus Acmetech will be a great stock. The Jewish rejection of Jesus has no bearing on the Christian rejection of Baha'u'llah, they are two unrelated issues.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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Aethelred wrote:
Elementary Watson...  A Brilliant observation!  Truely remarkable and precisely to the point! 
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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sumnom Original500© Member
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Oh, I do believe we are on the same page, Aethelred. I would guess this was Construct's thinking in his original query as to the nature of this thread.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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"The Jewish rejection of Jesus has no bearing on the Christian rejection of Baha'u'llah, they are two unrelated issues." Related in the sense that if the same methods of Bible interpretation were used by the Jews, and turned out to be wrong, that SHOULD stand as a warning to future users of that same way of looking at verses in the Bible. If the methods used then have never again been used, then fine... But I really was also interested in the discussion of the WHY the Jews didn't accept Christ--- but only one Christian has said anything about that, and he just posted an enormous Bible verse with NO discussion of how he reads and understands that verse.
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member Jesus...above every other name
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sirlamre wrote:
Let's take it to the big thread ok? I am hearing that the bible is really not where it's at according to berin but it's the writtings of Bahau'llah that count and are considered supreme and more worthy? Are you of the same mindset sirlamre? If so, why would we discuss Romans chapter 11 together if you are not seeing, hearing or caring about it?
Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4 |
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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sirlamre wrote: "The Jewish rejection of Jesus has no bearing on the Christian rejection of Baha'u'llah, they are two unrelated issues." However, you start with a flawed premise, that the Jews rejected Jesus because their expectations were too literal.
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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sumnom wrote:Oh, I do believe we are on the same page, Aethelred. I would guess this was Construct's thinking in his original query as to the nature of this thread. Actually no. My initial exchange was a negative assessment of both Christian and Baha'i appropriations of the scriptures of other religions. It was directed as an attack on the original post because it was committing the same error that the Christians had earlier committed. I do believe that there is hermeneutical significance in the "legacy" of a text. (See Derida's The Ear of the Other.)
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Aethelred Pioneer100© Member Ye Olde Dead King
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construct wrote: sumnom wrote: It might be interesting at this point to contrast how the Christians view and use Jewish Scripture with how the Baha'is view and use Christian Scripture. Of course I can only comment based on my own views and observations, but from what I have seen many Christians view the OT as being the literal Word of God and as equal in value to the NT. At the same time it is true that many Christians believe that parts of the OT are no longer applicable due to the advent of Christ (for example, the need for animal sacrifice no longer exists because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross). On the other hand, the Baha'is seem to view Scriptures written prior to their own and outdated and of lesser value. Based on what I have seen and read they also believe that all previous Scriptures have been corrupted to the point that they no longer convey their original intent in a trustworthy manner. Where history shows that this is not the case, the Baha'is reject history. I once commented to a Baha'i that to be intellectually honest and follow his faith, I would have to assume that large parts of known, established history are wrong. He agreed that he rejects parts of known recorded history as not being accurate!
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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Yes, Aethel, you are right in noticing that I glossed a distinction. Whereas Christians have adopted the Hebrew scriptures as a part of their own scriptures, the Baha'is have emphasized the corruption of earlier scriptures even while quoting them with different meaning. I would note, however, that almost all Christians (whether they admit it or not) do not treat all parts of the Bible as equally valuable. You have talked about some parts of the Old Testament law as being no longer directly applicable. I would broaden that to say that most believers find passages or books of the Bible that provide them with interpretative eye-glasses which they use to read the rest. The Bible has a center and a periphery which can vary among believers and congregations.
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24HourForums.com > Supported Forums > Brian's Science & Nature Shack > Evolution (used to be "Reasons the Jews do not accept the Messiah") | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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