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24HourForums.com > Supported Forums > Brian's Science & Nature Shack > Evolution (used to be "Reasons the Jews do not accept the Messiah") |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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Much discussion has ensued about why the Jews do not accept the carpenter Jesus from the Galilee as being Christ the Messiah. I was asked by a Christian on this forum to post some of the evidence I've found on the Internet for why Jews themselves say that they do NOT believe that Jesus fulfilled the requirements for being the Messiah. I have done so - I want to first lay out this CAVEAT!: I do NOT espouse to ANY of these ideas and Biblical interpretations by the Jews! I DO believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the OT validly prophesied His Coming. I DO also believe that both the OT AND the NT prophesied Baha'u'llah --- almost by name. I think the reasons why the Jews didn't accept Jesus was because of the SAME reasons the Christians now do not accept Baha'u'llah. To me, this is why the Christians will ONLY refer to quotes in the Bible as their proof-- they do NOT want to discuss the great similarities between the interpretive mistakes the Jews made, and their own methods of today. Note-- I'd welcome those quotes of the direct words of Jesus from the NT, and secondarily I'd also welcome those written opinions of the Apostles - if the Apostle in question doesn't say that "Jesus told us that", I'll consider the statement to be the opinion of that Apostle (though well-informed and very likely true) My expectation is that those quotes will be at a "20,000 foot level" and be more or less proofs of attitudes of the Jews that led to the Biblical misinterpretations I will post next. Once again, I do NOT personally believe the views of the Jews on Jesus --- but I do take what I'm about to post to be an accurate representation of their opinion.... Last edited on 12:14 am by sirlamre |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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From a Jewish site discussing how Jews should handle Christian fundamentalists who come door to door http://www.26reasons.com/reason8.html JESUS FAILED TO FULFILL ANY OF THE SIX AUTHENTIC JEWISH MESSIANIC CRITERIA INTRODUCTION: The word "messiah"[1] means anointed with oil. All kings,[2] high priests,[3] and prophets [4] in the Jewish Bible are described as "messiahs" because they were all anointed with oil into God's service. Many Jewish prophets foretold that a particular messiah, the Messiah ben David, would appear and fulfill six major prophecies that will lead the world into a special Messianic Era. These messianic criteria are and have always been universally accepted by the Jewish People. Jesus did not qualify as the Jewish Messiah ben David for the simple reason that he did not fulfill any of these criteria. The Messiah ben David must: 1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and King Solomon, 2. be anointed King of Israel, 3. return the Jewish People to Israel, 4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, 5. bring peace to the world and end all war, 6. bring knowledge of God to the world. THE BIBLE'S MESSIANIC CRITERIA ARE EMPIRICALLY VERIFIABLE: "Faith" is irrelevant to the Jewish concept of the Messiah ben David, because an individual either fulfills these prophetic criteria or he doesn't. Christianity requires faith that Jesus is their "messiah" precisely because he didn't fulfill any of the Jewish messianic criteria. Christianity's concept of faith in Jesus is therefore a substitute for this defect. It is important to note that the fulfillment of each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore no faith is required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. For example, the entire world will be able to observe that the Temple has been rebuilt, the Jews have returned to Israel, the entire world believes in God, and the world is at peace. Virtually none of the Christian messianic "proofs" are empirically verifiable. MAIMONIDES AND THE MESSIAH BEN DAVID: Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (the Rambam) was one of the greatest rabbinic sages in Jewish history. He explained how someday we would know the identity of the Messiah ben David: "We may assume that an individual is the Messiah [ben David] if he fulfills the following conditions: He must be a ruler, from the House of David, immersed in the Torah and its commandments like David his ancestor. He must also follow both the written and the Oral Torah, lead all Jews back to the Torah, strengthen the observance of its laws, and fight God's battles. If one fulfills these conditions, then we may assume that he is the Messiah. If he does this successfully, and then rebuilds the Temple [Beis HaMikdash] on its original site and gathers all the dispersed Jews, then we may be certain that he is the Messiah. He will then perfect the entire world and bring all men to serve God in unity. It is true that the prophet Isaiah predicted, 'The wolf shall live with the sheep, the leopard shall lie down with the kid.'[5] This however, is merely an allegory, meaning that the Jews will live safely, even with the wicked nations, who are likened to wolves and leopards."[6] THE FIRST MESSIANIC CRITERIA IS GENEALOGY: Of the six primary Jewish messianic criteria, the only one that the Christian Bible claimed for Jesus was genealogy. The Messiah ben David must be Jewish, from the Tribe of Judah, from the seed of King David, and from the seed of King Solomon. (See genealogy chart). He must be Jewish.[7] One is Jewish if their mother is Jewish.[8] He must be from the tribe of Judah.[9] Under Jewish law, tribal affiliation is through the birth father only.[10] Since Jesus allegedly had no human father, he had no tribal affiliation. Therefore, Jesus was not from the tribe of Judah and is eliminated from messianic consideration. The book of Chronicles in the Jewish Bible lists the genealogy of Abraham through King David plus an additional 29 descendants. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke provide conflicting genealogies for Jesus in an unsuccessful attempt to demonstrate that Jesus fulfilled the messianic criteria of genealogy. These three genealogies are listed, compared, and contrasted on the following page. GENEALOGY CHART ( Click Here ) JESUS DID NOT QUALIFY: NOTES TO THE GENEALOGIES OF MATTHEW AND LUKE [11] Matthew and Luke made numerous mistakes in their so-called "genealogies" of Jesus that eliminate him from messianic consideration. The numbers to the left of the text below refer back to the numbers on the genealogy chart on the preceding page: (1) He must be from the House of David. [12] Matthew 1 and Luke 3 traced Jesus' lineage through Joseph back to King David. However, the Gospels assert that the "holy spirit" was Jesus' father (not Joseph).[13] There is no indication in the Gospels that Joseph ever adopted Jesus although under Jewish law certain family and tribal affiliations must be through the birth father and cannot be claimed by adoption.[14] For example, if a Jewish priest, (a Cohen), has a male child, he has the status of a priest by birthright. However, if he adopts a child whose birth father was not a Cohen, the child does not have the status of a priest like his adopted father. Since Joseph was not Jesus' birth father, there is no evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was from the house of David, which cannot be conferred through adoption under Jewish law. This eliminates Jesus from messianic consideration. (2) He must be from the Seed of Solomon[15] According to prophecy, the Messiah ben David must descend through David's son Solomon. Not only was Solomon a king, he built the first Temple, which has profound messianic implications. Matthew claimed that Jesus descended through Solomon but Luke claimed that Jesus descended through Nathan, David's other son (who was not a king). This eliminates Jesus' genealogy through Luke. (3) A Fifteen Generation Difference: Luke's genealogy from David to Jesus is fifteen generations longer than Matthew's genealogy from David to Jesus. This undermines the Christian claim that the Gospels are the "word of God," because God certainly knows the genealogy of King David. Some Christians attempt to solve this fatal problem by claiming that Luke's genealogy is actually that of Mary, although Mary is not mentioned in Luke's genealogy. Further, this claim is rendered meaningless by the fact that Jewish law only recognizes tribal affiliation through the father.[16] Even if one could consider the genealogy of the mother, if one assumes a generation is at least twenty years, this means that Joseph was at least three hundred years older than his wife (fifteen extra generations times twenty years per generation equals a three hundred year difference in their ages). This gives new meaning to the idea of a "May-December" relationship. (4) Who was Jesus' Grandfather? The two "genealogies" do not agree on the identity of Jesus' grandfather. According to Matthew, Jesus' grandfather was Jacob and according to Luke he was Heli. This creates another devastating contradiction, further undermining the credibility of the genealogies given for Jesus by Matthew and Luke. PAUL AND THE GENEALOGIES: The apostle Paul was the putative author of the Epistles Titus and Timothy, which subtly address the issue of Jesus' genealogy: "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless."(Titus 3:3) "...nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than Godly edification which is in faith." (1 Timothy 1:4) CONCLUSION: The flawed and contradictory genealogies in Luke and Matthew are extremely problematic since genealogy is the only authentic messianic criteria that the Christian Bible claims that Jesus fulfilled. Jesus is eliminated from messianic consideration because of the myriad of errors and problems in both Matthew and Luke's genealogies. THE SECOND MESSIANIC CRITERIA IS THAT HE WILL BE ANOINTED KING OF ISRAEL. The term "messiah" means anointed with oil and in a messianic context refers to an anointed king. According to Jewish prophecy the Messiah ben David must descend from David who was a King of Israel. Therefore, David's messianic descendant must also be an anointed king of Israel. It is necessary that a Jewish prophet (or a High Priest) anoint Jewish kings (with oil) because prophets are messengers of God and authenticate their right to kingship. For example, the prophet Samuel anointed King Saul with oil,[17] and Samuel also anointed King David with oil.[18] This is one of the reasons the prophet Malachi prophesized that the prophet Elijah would return prior to the coming of the Messiah ben David.[19] A prophet (Elijah) must anoint David's messianic descendent king of Israel. Accordingly, in the Christian Bible Matthew claimed that John the Baptist was "Elijah the prophet."[20] Problematically, the Gospel of John (contradicting Matthew) reported that John the Baptist said he was not Elijah the prophet,[21] creating yet another problem for Jesus. According to the Gospel of John, when the Roman Procurator Pilate asked Jesus if he was "king of the Jews," Jesus answered "yes."[22] In addition, the Gospels report that a woman anointed Jesus' head with oil,[23] and a woman anointed Jesus' feet with oil.[24] Jesus was also anointed with oil for his burial.[25] Interestingly, since Jesus claimed to be king of an "otherworldly kingdom,"[26] this anointing with burial oil may have been intended by the Gospel writer to initiate his rule into a "spiritual" kingdom." However, although Jesus may have claimed to be "king of Israel" and nameless women may have anointed him with oil, these women were not prophets and there is no indication in the Gospels that Jesus was ever anointed Jesus king of Israel. SAMUEL: "When your days are complete and you lie with your forefathers, I shall raise up after you your offspring who will issue from your loins, and I shall make his kingdom firm. He shall build a Temple for My sake, and I shall make firm the throne of his kingdom forever. I shall be a Father unto him and he shall be a son unto Me, so that when he sins I will chastise him with the rod of men and with afflictions of human beings. But My kindness will not be removed from him as I removed [it] from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your dynasty and your kingdom will remain steadfast before you for all time; your throne will remain firm forever." (2 Samuel 7:12-16) CHRONICLES: "When your days are complete to go to your forefathers, I will raise up after you your offspring who will be from among your sons; and I shall make his kingdom firm. He shall build a Temple for Me and I shall make his throne firm forever." (1 Chronicles 17:11-12) CONCLUSION: Jesus may have claimed to be "king" and women may have anointed him with oil. However, a prophet never anointed Jesus king of Israel. Therefore, he failed to fulfill this messianic criteria and is therefore eliminated from messianic consideration. THE THIRD MESSIANIC CRITERIA IS THAT HE WILL BRING THE JEWISH PEOPLE BACK TO ISRAEL. Not only did Jesus fail to bring the Jewish People back to Israel, the Jews were expelled from Israel shortly after Jesus lived. This is the opposite of what this messianic prophecy requires. ISAIAH: "He will arise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12) ISAIAH: "It shall be on that day that Hashem will thresh, from the surging [Euphrates] River to the Brook of Egypt, and you [Israel] will be gathered up one by one, O Children of Israel. It shall be on that day that a great shofar will be blown, and those who are lost in the land of Assyria and those cast away in the land of Egypt will come [together], and they will prostrate themselves to Hashem on the holy mountain in Jerusalem." (Isaiah 27:12-13) JEREMIAH: "I will return the captivity of Judah and captivity of Israel, and will rebuild them as at first." (Jeremiah 33:7) CONCLUSION: Jesus did not return the Jewish People to Israel and he is therefore eliminated from messianic consideration. THE FOURTH MESSIANIC CRITERIA IS THAT HE WILL REBUILD THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM. Obviously, Jesus could not have fulfilled the messianic prophecy to rebuild the Temple since it was not destroyed during his lifetime. This (third) Temple must be built on the Temple Mount as specifically described by the prophet Ezekiel.[27] John's Gospel reported that Jesus said that the Temple would be destroyed and he would re-rebuild it.[28] Matthew's Gospel reported that Jesus was accused of threatening to destroy the Temple.[29] Perhaps the authors of these Gospels realized that Jesus had not fulfilled this messianic criteria and these comments were intended to address this problem. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the Jewish Messiah ben David must build the third Temple. EZEKIEL: "I will seal a covenant of peace with them; it will be an eternal covenant with them; and I will emplace them and increase them, and I will place My Sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be among them; I will be a God to them and they will be a people to Me. Then the nations will know that I am Hashem who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary will be among them forever." (Ezekiel 37:26-28) MICAH: "It will be in the end of days that the Mountain of the Temple of Hashem will be firmly established as the most prominent of the mountains, and it will be exalted up above the hills, and peoples will stream to it." (Micah 4:1) ISAIAH: "It will happen in the end of days; The Mountain of the Temple of Hashem will be firmly established as the head of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it. Many peoples will go and say, 'Come, let us go up to the Mountain of Hashem, to the Temple of the God of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths." (Isaiah 2: 2,3) CONCLUSION: Jesus never rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem in the manner described by the prophet Ezekiel and is therefore eliminated from messianic consideration. THE FIFTH MESSIANIC CRITERIA IS THAT HE WILL BRING PEACE TO THE WORLD AND END ALL WAR. Jesus brought no peace to the world. Israel was destroyed in two wars with Rome shortly after Jesus lived. The last 2000 years have been the most violent in human history and the Church that was founded in Jesus' name caused many of these wars. Since its re-establishment in 1948, Israel has not been safe from her enemies. EZEKIEL: "I will seal a covenant of peace with them; it will be an eternal covenant with them; and I will emplace them and increase them, and I will place My Sanctuary among them forever." (Ezekiel 37:26) MICAH: "He will judge between many peoples, and will settle the arguments of mighty nations from far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning knives; nation will not lift sword against nations, nor will they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3) ISAIAH: "He will judge among the nations, and will settle the arguments of many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare." (Isaiah 2:4) CONCLUSION: Jesus brought no peace to the world, and he is therefore eliminated from messianic consideration. THE SIXTH MESSIANIC CRITERIA IS THAT HE WILL BRING KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO THE WORLD. Jesus did not bring knowledge of the Jewish God to the world. The Christian Bible directly contradicts the Jewish definition of God and directly contradicts all fundamental Jewish teachings about God. Most of the world still does not know God. Ironically, whenever a Christian missionary proselytizes a non-believer he proves that the Messiah ben David has not yet come. His act of proselytizing is a graphic demonstration that the world is not yet filled with knowledge of God. ISAIAH: "They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be as filled with knowledge of Hashem as water covering the sea bed." (Isaiah 11:9) ISAIAH: "The glory of Hashem will be revealed, and all flesh together will see that the mouth of Hashem has spoken." (Isaiah 40:5) ZEPHANIAH: "For then I will change the nations [to speak] a pure language, so that they all will proclaim the Name of Hashem, to worship Him with a united resolve." (Zephaniah 3:9) JEREMIAH: "They will no longer teach - each man his fellow, each man his brother-saying, "Know Hashem! For all of them will know Me, from their smallest to their greatest - the word of Hashem - when I will forgive their iniquity and will no longer recall their sin." (Jeremiah 31:33) CONCLUSION: Jesus failed to bring knowledge of God to the world and is therefore eliminated from messianic consideration. The Messiah ben David by definition is the man who fulfills the six authentic messianic criteria discussed above. The Christian idea of "belief or faith" in this messiah or in his identity is never mentioned in the Jewish Bible because it is irrelevant. In Jewish terms, failure to fulfill even one of the messianic criteria is conclusive proof that individual is not the Messiah ben David. Therefore, when Jesus died without fulfilling any of the six messianic criteria, this was conclusive proof that he was not the Messiah ben David. THERE IS NO "SECOND COMING" CONCEPT IN THE JEWISH BIBLE: Missionaries respond with their "second coming" theory, which asserts that Jesus will accomplish everything when he comes "next time." There are two major problems with this Christian answer. First, the second coming theory has no scriptural basis in the Jewish Bible. In fact, scripture states that when a person dies, "on that day his plans all perish."[30] Therefore, according to scripture, when Jesus died, his plans ended. Second, the second coming theory can apply to any person who has ever lived and therefore is totally meaningless. For example, one can claim that their Gentile grandmother was the messiah. When challenged that she didn't accomplish anything, one can say that when she "comes back" she will be born a Jewish man with the correct genealogy and will accomplish everything! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] "Moshiach" in Hebrew, and "christ" in Greek [2] 1 Kings 1:39 [3] Lev. 4:3 [4] Isaiah 61:1 [5] Isaiah 11:6 [6] Talmud Yad, Melachim 11:4 [7] Numbers 24:17, Deut. 17:15 [8] Lev. 24:10, Ezra 10:2,3 [9] Genesis 49:10 [10] Numbers 34:14, Numbers 1:18-44, Leviticus 24:10, [11] Source: Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer [12] Jeremiah 33:17-20, 1 Chron. 17:11-12 [13] Matthew 1:18 [14] Numbers 34:14, Numbers 1:18-44, Leviticus 24:10 [15] 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 89:29-38, 1 Chron.17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:6-7 [16] Numbers 1:18 [17] 1 Samuel 15:1 [18] 1 Samuel 16:1, 13 [19] Malachi 3:23-24 [20] Matthew 11:11-14, 17:12-13 [21] John 1:21 [22] John 18:37 [23] Mark 14:3, Matthew 26:7 [24] Luke 7:38, John 12:3 [25] John 12:7, Matthew 26:12 [26] John 18:36 [27] Ezekiel, chapters 40-48 [28] John 2:19 [29] Matthew 26:61 [30] Psalm 146:4 Last edited on 12:12 am by sirlamre |
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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From a Rabbi on Judaism.about.com http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm Question Why did the majority of the Jewish world reject Jesus as the Messiah, and why did the first Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah? Answer It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path. Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: 1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. 2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah. 3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations. 4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation. At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics: 5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology 6) Jews and Gentiles 7) Bringing the Messiah ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will: A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6). C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies. Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended. B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! C. TORAH OBSERVANCE The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation. A. VIRGIN BIRTH The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods. B. CRUCIFIXION The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet." C. SUFFERING SERVANT Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant." In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun. Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus. From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person. Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4). Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8): The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy. What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3) Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, and the one most familiar to the Western world. A. GOD AS THREE? The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies. In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert. B. MAN AS GOD? Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19). Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3) C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER? The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me." In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1) D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations. By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform. The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) JEWS AND GENTILES Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations." The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it. Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven. For further study of the Seven Laws of Noah, see: Bnei Noah of Fort Worth http://www.fastlane.net/~bneinoah/ Path of the Righteous Gentile http://www.chabad.org/gopher/outlook/7laws/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age. Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?" How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well. Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition. The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- For further study, read "The Real Messiah" by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan Online resources on the Jewish view of Jesus: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org http://www.outreachjudaism.org http://www.drazin.com With blessings from Jerusalem, Rabbi Shraga Simmons Aish.com
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construct Pioneer100© Member  The Boy Next Door
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sirlamre wrote:To me, this is why the Christians will ONLY refer to quotes in the Bible as their proof-- they do NOT want to discuss the great similarities between the interpretive mistakes the Jews made, and their own methods of today. Is this yet another "Baha'i v. Chrisitianity" thread? Let me open the discussion by saying that I don't think the Jews (by and large) were wrong in their interpretation of their own scriptures. I think that early Christians failed to appreciate how fundamentally they diverged from the Jews in their appropriation of Jewish texts. Likewise, I don't think the Christians are wrong (by and large) in their interpretation of their own scriptures. I think that Baha'is have failed to appreciate how fundamentally they diverge from Christians in their appropriation of Christian texts. I place the caveat that I am not a Jew nor a Christian nor a Baha'i.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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construct wrote: I think that Baha'is have failed to appreciate how fundamentally they diverge from Christians in their appropriation of Christian texts. We Baha'is believe that our doctrines are a brand new Revelation direct from God. That's about as fundamental a divergence from the man-made theology that has arisen from the Scriptures of the past as we will ever get.
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construct Pioneer100© Member The Boy Next Door
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berinwitness wrote:construct wrote:I think that Baha'is have failed to appreciate how fundamentally they diverge from Christians in their appropriation of Christian texts. Good. Then we have collapsed into agreement. Now, please try and convince your Baha'i friends that you are right and that you all should stop trying to tell Christians that they've missed the whole point of the New Testament.
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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construct wrote: you all should stop trying to tell Christians that they've missed the whole point of the New Testament. But they HAVE missed it. 1. All Christians should love each other. 2. Jesus wants all of His followers to become Baha'is.
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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That is pretty much, after all, what the Christians believe that the Bible is saying ---- that the Bible IS saying that Jesus called all people to do -- recognise Him and His Revelation and Baha'u'llah has called for the same thing today-- So yes, there's a large migration away from the material interpretations and the mankind-changed beliefs each time God sends a new Revelation. But that's not because the Revelations from God are changing very much (aside from things like what day to worship on and what food to eat) What seems to be the huge changes is the differences between what man THOUGHT God had meant and what God really DID mean -- Even though I respect the right of the Jews to NOT believe that Jesus the carpenter from Galilee was not in fact the promised Messiah --- at the same time, I cannot agree with the manner in which they interpreted the Old Testament verses such that they still believe that Jesus was not the Messiah.... Nor can I agree with the Christian interpretation of the NT that supposes that Jesus will come not 'as a thief in the night', but physically literally floating down out of the sky, obviously Christ Jesus to every physical eye on earth at the same instant--- even those who have never heard of Christ or Christianity (few though they may now be)
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sirlamre Pioneer100© Member Official Forum Troublemaker
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However--- This is NOT to be a discussion (I hope) of what Baha'is believe... I deliberately set this as a separate thread about Jewish beliefs and interpretations of the OT precisely BECAUSE I wanted to NOT be Christian/Baha'i here. I wanted to hear the Christians views on how the NT agrees with what Jews themselves have to say about why Jesus isn't the Messiah or more correctly, how the Christians agree that the Jewish interpretations are incorrect and shows why and how, without the Christians simply ignoring what the Jews say for themselves, and making up some reason all their own...
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berinwitness Original500© Member
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sirlamre wrote: This is NOT to be a discussion (I hope) of what Baha'is believe... Okay. 
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JustifiedByFaith Pioneer100© Member  Jesus...above every other name
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sirlamre wrote:
Here's my view:  Please read more than one time... Romans 11:1-36 The Apostle Paul (A Jew) wrote in the bible: "I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Just as it is written: “ God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”And David says: “ Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.” I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: &nbs | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
